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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 24, 2008, 10:35pm
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Juulie, I found your two 'worst officials'...

... they worked my 5th grade National (lower) boys CYO final tonight!

All season long I had been trying to gear for the reality that our post season games would be officiated by 'real' officials, not the youth referees we had for most of the season.

My team went 9-1, mostly because we were the pressing, in your face, not very skilled but persistent team. We caught other teams by surprise, beat them up a little, and got away with it.

I've been transitioning to more run back and play solid defense in the half court.

So last night I had the youth ref and a the young adult ref and they did a good job. Tonight I was expecting a higher caliber, and the refs that did the game before mine (I just peeked in) fit that bill. I thought the we would be well officiated.

Well, that was not the case. Talk about 2 guys who gave nothing. Calling the game while walking up the court... they let the boys just beat the crap out of each other. I was in a state of disbelief. I knew where I stood when A1 passed from the frontcourt to A2 in the backcourt... and there was no call. No subtleties here, clearly in the front court, clearly in the back court.

So, long story short, my top player has a soccer tryout and may make an appearance. My #3 player is the guy who was involved in the fight yesterday, and is ineligible for this game. We are at the other teams home gym and they have about 4 times as many fans as ours. Opposing coach is playing to the crowd, pumping up the volume. We are getting smoked 10-2 at halftime.

No calls. Players travelling, pushing, grabbing, bumping.

Well, the light bulb finally turned on for me. I told my 'let's press, let's press, let's press' assistant "you're getting your wish tonight". We turned the dogs loose, beat the livin' crap out of the other team and pulled to within 4 at the end of 3.

Just after the 4th quarter starts, my 'star' comes running in the door. The place was a madhouse, but he is just happy to be there and ready to play. My team is energized and they just bring it. We continue to beat the crap out of opposition and get away with it. Tie, go up 2, up 4. We have only 3 team fouls, so with 1:30 to go we are going to take it up another notch and go "red zone" (intentional fouling that I had taught the boys last week). Even if they call 'em we can use some time up.

At this point I realize that maybe I should have gone to intentional foul mode much earlier, as these refs will not call fouls.

Anyways, we win by 3. Super effort by the boys, and I am ultimately genuinely shocked and appalled by the officiating tonight.

Last edited by ca_rumperee; Mon Feb 25, 2008 at 12:20am.
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 24, 2008, 10:56pm
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Hmmmm. So when crappy officiating helps you, you like it. When it's costing you, (allegedly), it sucks.

Go figure. YOu're an idiot.
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 24, 2008, 11:02pm
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Join Date: Aug 2005
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Walking ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by ca_rumperee
Calling the game while walking up the court.
No excuse for this. Everything else? I don't know. It's a matter of perspective.
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 24, 2008, 11:29pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ca_rumperee
... they worked my 5th grade National (lower) boys CYO final tonight!

All season long I had been trying to gear for the reality that our post season games would be officiated by 'real' officials, not the youth referees we had for most of the season.

My team went 9-1, mostly because we were the pressing, in your face, not very skilled but persistent team. We caught other teams by surprise, beat them up a little, and got away with it.

I've been transitioning to more run back and play solid defense in the half court.

So last night I had the youth ref and a the young adult ref and they did a good job. Tonight I was expecting a higher caliber, and the refs that did the game before mine (I just peeked in) fit that bill. I thought the we would be well officiated.

Well, that was not the case. Talk about 2 guys who gave nothing. Calling the game while walking up the court... they let the boys just beat the crap out of each other. I was in a state of disbelief. I knew where I stood when A1 passed to A2 in the backcourt... and there was no call. No subtleties here, clearly in the front court, clearly in the back court.

So, long story short, my top player has a soccer tryout and may make an appearance. My #3 player is the guy who was involved in the fight yesterday, and is ineligible for this game. We are at the other teams home gym and they have about 4 times as many fans as ours. Opposing coach is playing to the crowd, pumping up the volume. We are getting smoked 10-2 at halftime.

No calls. Players travelling, pushing, grabbing, bumping.

Well, the light bulb finally turned on for me. I told my 'let's press, let's press, let's press' assistant "you're getting your wish tonight". We turned the dogs loose, beat the livin' crap out of the other team and pulled to within 4 at the end of 3.

Just after the 4th quarter starts, my 'star' comes running in the door. The place was a madhouse, but he is just happy to be there and ready to play. My team is energized and they just bring it. We continue to beat the crap out of opposition and get away with it. Tie, go up 2, up 4. We have only 3 team fouls, so with 1:30 to go we are going to take it up another notch and go "red zone" (intentional fouling that I had taught the boys last week). Even if they call 'em we can use some time up.

At this point I realize that maybe I should have gone to intentional foul mode much earlier, as these refs will not call fouls.

Anyways, we win by 3. Super effort by the boys, and I am ultimately genuinely shocked and appalled by the officiating tonight.
ROFL!! I'm laughing my head off. This is unquestionably the post of the week.

Next year, call me, Padgett and I will fly in and wow 'em with our "experience" and "dedication to the game". We're both old and gray, but they'll get everything we've got!
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 25, 2008, 12:14am
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Bay Area, CA
Posts: 208
Noooo!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes
Hmmmm. So when crappy officiating helps you, you like it. When it's costing you, (allegedly), it sucks.
What I've learned on the coaching side this year is to react to what you've got from the team in stripes.
Quote:

Go figure. You're an idiot.
That is certainly debatable.
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 25, 2008, 12:33am
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by ca_rumperee
so with 1:30 to go we are going to take it up another notch and go "red zone" (intentional fouling that I had taught the boys last week). Even if they call 'em we can use some time up.
I don't get this at all. How can stopping the clock use some time up? Why would you want to send the other team to the line and then give them the ball back if you were ahead?

Maybe we should take a poll on that idiot thing. (note the winky face)
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 25, 2008, 02:56am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Padgett
I don't get this at all. How can stopping the clock use some time up? Why would you want to send the other team to the line and then give them the ball back if you were ahead?
They only had 3 team fouls...no FTs were going to be taken....he wasn't saying it was an "Intentional" foul, but an intentional/deliberate/strategic foul designed to only draw a common foul. He was expecting the refs to not even call anything at all given the stuff they called all night but if they did call something he was OK with that....expecing that it would, if called at all, be a common foul.

Such fouling before the bonus can be beneficial. Even though the clock stops on the foul, each throwin situation will take "some" amount of time. When a team gets anywhere in what could be a threatening but not yet shooting situation, foul them. The throwin will likely be made to a postion less threatening....hence at least 2-3 seconds saved...probably 5-10 before they can work it back into a similar position.

In fact, Tennessee employed a similar stategy against Memphis on Saturday. UT was up 3 with little time remaining. Memphis, who shoots FT's poorly, had the ball. UT deliberated fouled....sending UM to the line for 1+1. And it worked....UM, IIRC, missed the first shot and UT got the rebound sealing the victory.
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Last edited by Camron Rust; Mon Feb 25, 2008 at 02:58am.
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 25, 2008, 05:47am
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Posts: 423
You should know as an official that you will likely never get the top refs for a 5th grade CYO final. It's just not gonna happen, at that level you get "warm body" caliber. That's not to say that there aren't many very professional referees who do a great job at that level, but considering your implied experience during the season that you shouldn't expect to have two of them. As a coach (I coach HS baseball), I am appalled by your strategic machinations during this game. Not to be a preacher, but 5th grade basketball is about player development first, and regardless of how the game is being called, teaching players to foul other players intentionally has no place in the game of basketball. What kind of message does it send to your kids who experience a positive result from intentionally fouling and getting away with it from inept refs? Teach the kids the game the right way and teach discipline, don't teach them its OK to intentionally violate the rules. Don't condition them to respond to a missed call by retaliating against opponents. This is 5th grade basketball and the lack of integrity in coaching players to intentionally foul and then bragging about it as being your brilliant strategy while ripping the referees on a message board is incredible and shows a huge lack of respect for the game of basketball. Congratulations on that win coach, it was all you, go out and enjoy.
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Old Mon Feb 25, 2008, 06:41am
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CA - while not in the same class game as you, I had one of two less experienced, adult refs dissappointingly work my son's semi final game this weekend too. Like you, I expected two Sr Officials. This guy usually does G7/8 and G9/10 and hadn't done a game at the B13/15 level all yr - bad decision by the assignor IMO - oh well. As others have said - gotta live with what you get.

He didn't do a stellar job, again IMO, but hey, ultimately, my boys lost by 3 because they were out played and made too many turnovers. Not by anything the official did or didn't do. The boys can whine and complain all they want (heck they're teenagers, that's what they do when things don't go their way) I would hear none of it and told em to stop complaining and play. As I always say - make ALL your layups and free throws and you'll win the game regardless of anything else....they didn't.

I coached, "chirped a bit", asked for a few calls and never gottem - oh well, I sat back down, accepted the calls, and continued to try and coach my best. What else can I do if I want to set the example? It was a great game, came down to the last seconds and we lost - period.

We won the regular season championship and finished 11-3 overall. The boys had a good run and didn't make it all the way. Just like all playoffs - only one team wins their last game of the season. There's always next yr.......

And now, this Sat, I ref the five league championship games.....and get to hear everyone talk bad about me!
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 25, 2008, 08:07am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMEngmann
You should know as an official that you will likely never get the top refs for a 5th grade CYO final. It's just not gonna happen, at that level you get "warm body" caliber. That's not to say that there aren't many very professional referees who do a great job at that level, but considering your implied experience during the season that you shouldn't expect to have two of them. As a coach (I coach HS baseball), I am appalled by your strategic machinations during this game. Not to be a preacher, but 5th grade basketball is about player development first, and regardless of how the game is being called, teaching players to foul other players intentionally has no place in the game of basketball. What kind of message does it send to your kids who experience a positive result from intentionally fouling and getting away with it from inept refs? Teach the kids the game the right way and teach discipline, don't teach them its OK to intentionally violate the rules. Don't condition them to respond to a missed call by retaliating against opponents. This is 5th grade basketball and the lack of integrity in coaching players to intentionally foul and then bragging about it as being your brilliant strategy while ripping the referees on a message board is incredible and shows a huge lack of respect for the game of basketball. Congratulations on that win coach, it was all you, go out and enjoy.
Very well said. I concur completely. Players at that age deserve better than what they got.
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 25, 2008, 08:15am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMEngmann
You should know as an official that you will likely never get the top refs for a 5th grade CYO final. It's just not gonna happen, at that level you get "warm body" caliber. That's not to say that there aren't many very professional referees who do a great job at that level, but considering your implied experience during the season that you shouldn't expect to have two of them. As a coach (I coach HS baseball), I am appalled by your strategic machinations during this game. Not to be a preacher, but 5th grade basketball is about player development first, and regardless of how the game is being called, teaching players to foul other players intentionally has no place in the game of basketball. What kind of message does it send to your kids who experience a positive result from intentionally fouling and getting away with it from inept refs? Teach the kids the game the right way and teach discipline, don't teach them its OK to intentionally violate the rules. Don't condition them to respond to a missed call by retaliating against opponents. This is 5th grade basketball and the lack of integrity in coaching players to intentionally foul and then bragging about it as being your brilliant strategy while ripping the referees on a message board is incredible and shows a huge lack of respect for the game of basketball. Congratulations on that win coach, it was all you, go out and enjoy.
Awesome post!
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 25, 2008, 08:22am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ca_rumperee
We caught other teams by surprise, beat them up a little, and got away with it.

We turned the dogs loose, beat the livin' crap out of the other team and pulled to within 4 at the end of 3.

We continue to beat the crap out of opposition and get away with it.

At this point I realize that maybe I should have gone to intentional foul mode much earlier, as these refs will not call fouls.

Anyways, we win by 3. Super effort by the boys, and I am ultimately genuinely shocked and appalled by the officiating tonight.
And I am genuinely shocked and appalled that any coach would go to those extremes with 5th. grade kids just to get a win. And I am even more shocked and appalled that the coach would come on an officials' forum and brag about it. And even worse, as a supposed official you recognized that you had inexperienced youth officials that are still learning, and you took full advantage of their inexperience in your quest for the almighty win. Did it ever cross your mind to think how you would have felt as an inexperienced official if you were put into that exact same situation by some dickhead coach?

You shouldn't be anywhere near youth basketball. You're sad. And if you're going to take your personal philosophy into officiating, we really don't need you in that avocation either.

Word.
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Old Mon Feb 25, 2008, 08:25am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes
Hmmmm. So when crappy officiating helps you, you like it. When it's costing you, (allegedly), it sucks.

Go figure. YOu're an idiot.
Word.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 25, 2008, 09:28am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
ROFL!! I'm laughing my head off. This is unquestionably the post of the week.
Gotta admit I really don't see what's funny here.
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 25, 2008, 09:37am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMEngmann
You should know as an official that you will likely never get the top refs for a 5th grade CYO final. It's just not gonna happen, at that level you get "warm body" caliber.
I dont know.. sometimes I think they actually prop a stiff up there... but.. cant really tell.
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Coach.. I dont care if you coached in the ncaa.. this is a 7th grade girls traveling team.
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