Odd day on the court yesterday...

[Coltdoggs]

Worked my rec league 7th/8th graders and then headed to another place for a big JRHS tourney. These are feeder teams for the HS, talent level is up there.

Between the two gyms, I had a total of 3 BC violations for a player jumping from BC, catching ball in the air from a player who was FC. 3 different games, same play...It was rather odd to have this happen this many times in one day.

In the Tourney, had a team coached by Steve Risley (BLUE), former IU player...I've worked several of his games and he's a good coach and usually doesn't have anything to say to the officials. Their opponent's (WHITE) coach was another local team coached by the Asst. Varsity Coach of the HS that Eric Gordon from IU went to (and also the same school I attended 20 years ago). Both teams are well known and both coaches are good guys...

Did a brief pregame with both coaches introduced myself and my partner...advised them of the timout rules for this tourney (1F, 2-:30 per half, no carryover) asked if they had any questions....all was well...

Game started off like I knew it would...both teams are bringing it at each other and we are letting them play....quite frankly there was just nothing to call as the D was staying within their plane defending the low post shots and the O was having a tough time getting shots to go down on both ends..... We called the obvious stuff.....late in the 1st half during a dead ball, I notice two players jockeying for position, doing the arm push, nothing bad at this point but I'm T and L is putting the ball in, so I blow my whistle to stop him and approach the two with the intent to talk to them and tell them to clean it up...as I'm approaching and saying "HEY..WATCH THE...." I notice WHITE player give a huge retaliation push and has now assumed the stance of Mike Tyson ready to fight, BLUE player just backed up, as he wanted no part of fighting....I immediatley blow the whistle and bang both players with Ts.

Grab my partner and inform him what I have, go to the table and inform them, then the coaches. FLAGRANT T on WHITE, he's gone...Unsporting T on Blue...he'll stay around...

White team coach wants to know if I saw blue player push and why his player is gone...I said "Yes coach, I saw both players pushinging and saw your player taunt the kid, ready to fight...he's going to be done for the day as a result...additionally, I have charged BLUE player with a T as well for his actions."

Partner and I talk at halftime that we should tighten it up a bit and we do...at one point BLUE committed 3rd team foul on a shot...As I'm putting the ball to FT Shooter their coach says to me "Mike, the foul count is 8-2..." with a concerned look on his face. I said, "Coach, what do you want me to do?"....he says, "It's 8-2..." I responded with "Well coach...tell your players to STOP FOULING". He has this really puzzled look and starts laughing...I said smiling "Coach, that will fix the problem right?l". He then says to me..."Are you saying BLUE is not fouling?" I said "Of course not, you are shooting FTs right now and you did say they had 2 team fouls right...so this one makes 3"

Blue went on to win by about 6 and I was told by White coach BLUE shot 30 FTs the 2nd half?...I think we called it a bit tighter in the second half.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

I notice BLUE player give a huge retaliation push and has now assumed the stance of Mike Tyson ready to fight, WHITE player just backed up, as he wanted no part of fighting....

FLAGRANT T on White, he's gone...Unsporting T on Blue...he'll stay around...

Why a flagrant on White, but not on Blue?? Did you see White do something that you did not put in your post?? From what you wrote, a flagrant just seems way, way over the top...

[tomegun]

Not only does a flagrant seem over the top, you said there was "just nothing to call" in the first half, but went on to say "we should tighten it up a bit" for the second half. This seems like a contradiction to me. What do you think?

[Coltdoggs]

Ahh..sorry fellas...meant FLAGRANT on White for taunting and ready to fight position....Fixed it in my original...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

...late in the 1st half during a dead ball, I notice two players jockeying for position, doing the arm push, nothing bad at this point but I'm T and L is putting the ball in, so I blow my whistle to stop him and approach the two with the intent to talk to them and tell them to clean it up...as I'm approaching and saying "HEY..WATCH THE...." I notice WHITE player give a huge retaliation push and has now assumed the stance of Mike Tyson ready to fight, BLUE player just backed up, as he wanted no part of fighting....I immediatley blow the whistle and bang both players with Ts.

Grab my partner and inform him what I have, go to the table and inform them, then the coaches. FLAGRANT T on WHITE, he's gone...Unsporting T on Blue...he'll stay around...

White team coach wants to know if I saw blue player push and why his player is gone...I said "Yes coach, I saw both players pushing and saw your player taunt the kid, ready to fight...he's going to be done for the day as a result...additionally, I have charged BLUE player with a T as well for his actions."

Good call on the flagrant technical foul to White. Jmo, but a more accurate call might have been a double technical foul for the original "jockeying"( or a double warning if you felt the "jockeying didn't warrant "T"s), followed by a flagrant technical for the Tyson impersonation. That goes with calling everything in the order that they actually happened. The way that you did it means that the white player got away with the original "jockeying" and the blue player got called for his part in it.

If you do enforce the acts in order, you also nail the player who really deserves it. If you just call a straight double technical foul(as you did), there's no FT's and you go with the POI. If instead you call the double technical foul(or a double warning) followed by White's flagrant "T", Blue will get 2 FT's and the ball.... which is more appropriate imo.

[Coltdoggs]

Originally Posted by tomegun

you said there was "just nothing to call" in the first half, but went on to say "we should tighten it up a bit" for the second half. This seems like a contradiction to me. What do you think?

tom...let me clear that up...there were some plays where nothing to call because some good D was being played and other times where we were "letting them play"....as in there was contact but no real advantage being gained. Perhaps we should have called it a little more closely on the press and out on the permimeter in the first half as that was the crux of both coaches talking to us...White particularly felt his guys were getting fould on the press but they were getting the ball up the floor....so, I don't know...

I was thinking about it yesterday and wondering if some of our no calls led to the kids getting frustrated and thus the pushing match and the Ts? Like I said, Blue Coach (Risley), I've had his team several times over the summer and fall....They are a smart team that play aggressive but don't create a lot of contact resulting in fouls. This was the disparity in the foul count the White team coach was after me about....His team was just more aggressive and drawing more contact that resulted in us blowing the whistle.

All in all these teams were very evenly mathced and I can say that if they played 10 times, they'd probably split 5-5.

Jurassic...thanks for the input...that may have actually been what I should have done...Like I said, the big push came as I was approaching and both players were guilty of the jockeying/pushing, BLUE just lost his cool and and when the clinched fists came out I knew he had to go....

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

Jurassic...thanks for the input.....

I'm glad that you recognized it as being input and not criticism. It certainly wasn't meant as criticism. You recognized that you had a problem, and you took care of that problem. Can't knock that.

[Coltdoggs]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I'm glad that you recognized it as being input and not criticism. It certainly wasn't meant as criticism. You recognized that you had a problem, and you took care of that problem. Can't knock that.

Isn't the first rule of officiating...Don't take it personal!

I always look at responses on here as constructive....I don't pretend to know how to handle all situations and there are some rules that I don't tend to encounter working lower level and have actually went blank on (take GT and BI for instance)....Although, some of these JRHS kids are some big boys these days! While not uncommon, had a 6'-5' 8th grader not long ago...heck, Greg Oden was close to 6'-10" in 8th grade when I did his AAU team in my first year of officiating.

I try to keep myself open and honest about things/situations I say/do while reffing because, even after 7 years of JRHS hoops and some summer HS stuff...I realize I am still learning. I've been raked over the coals on occassion, but that's how you learn and I'm ok with hearing when I mess it up...I don't consider myself to be a great official, but I am far from a newbie and a portion of my understanding of our craft has come from guys on this board...I may not agree with something that someone says from time to time, but that doesn't mean they are wrong and I am right...it just means that's how they would do it...

[Da Official]

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

late in the 1st half during a dead ball, I notice two players jockeying for position, doing the arm push, nothing bad at this point but I'm T and L is putting the ball in, so I blow my whistle to stop him and approach the two with the intent to talk to them and tell them to clean it up...as I'm approaching and saying "HEY..WATCH THE...." I notice WHITE player give a huge retaliation push and has now assumed the stance of Mike Tyson ready to fight, BLUE player just backed up, as he wanted no part of fighting....I immediatley blow the whistle and bang both players with Ts.

Grab my partner and inform him what I have, go to the table and inform them, then the coaches. FLAGRANT T on WHITE, he's gone...Unsporting T on Blue...he'll stay around...

Colt, IMO the result of White player being ejected is the correct call. I'm not sure you can find rules under NFHS to support the Flagrant but I believe 1 Technical for the push is warranted under (9-3-7...Unsporting Foul) and a 2nd Technical against White for the Mike Tyson bit is warranted under (9-3-7c...Baiting or taunting an opponent).

Also, I do believe it was a good call to hit BLUE with the Technical under (9-3-7...Unsporting Foul) since there was pushing involved (plus sending a message to BLUE to cease further action is a good thing).

Again this is my opinion...