Bktballref and all please look at this

[crew]

unbelievable!

[Oz Referee]

People!
Here is a classic example of the intent of the rules. Even if this motion is not specifically prohibited according to the rules - the intent of the rules definitley does make this action illegal.

We should remember that just because an action/event is not specifically prohibited, it does not been that it is allowed by the rules.

Let's use our heads a bit.....

[Self]

Thanks OZ, it just amazes that this can be confusing. That is why 2-3 is there. To me it is the common sense rule. The rules cannot spell out every possible verbage, adverb or action. We have to be able to look at the intent of the rule and use our judgement. Thanks for your input...

[Self]

Do you not agree that written rules cannot be all inclusive of the english language and all verbage cannot be used to describe a play. Is it not judgement then that can be used?

By the way I have seen this play.

Also what board and which post did I disapoint you. If so I apologize....

[BktBallRef]

First, let's not use the word tap. A tap is an attempt to score a basket. Let's use the word bat.

A player can bat a rebound or pass into the air one time without establishing player control. Do we agree?

A player can bat the ball into the air a second time without establishing player control. Do we agree?

In your mind, how many times does he have to bat the ball before he establishes player control? Is there a magical number?

I will continue to allow the player to bat the ball until he holds the ball or begins a dribble. If the ball comes to rest in one of his hands while he is batting the ball, I now have control. But if he continues to bat the ball while moving his feet and he doesn't establish player control, I have nothing!

4-12-1
A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds.

As I stated on the GAVSV board, this is a ridiculous play. I've never seen it happen and it's not going to happen. A player can move down the floor much faster and under more control by dribbling the ball.

BTW, it's even more ludicrous to call this an illegal dribble. A dribble is batting the ball to the floor. Where, in this thread, was it stated that the ball was batted to the floor? Please site the rule that says you can have an illegal dribble without dribbling.

[Spelling corrected! ]

[Edited by BktBallRef on Feb 24th, 2002 at 05:24 PM]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Self
I am just a little shocked. You still have not answered. Would you allow the below without calling traveling... Yes or No?

"Player sprints down the court with hands at waist level and taps the ball back and forth from left hand to right never letting the ball come to rest. You could run circles around your opponents never letting the ball come to rest in either hand, as long as you tap it back and forth.

I haven't answered because I just got in the damn door.If you go back and read my replies,I have definitively stated TWICE already that it isn't travelling if the ball doesn't come to rest.BBRef specifically stated that the ball DIDN'T come to rest in the above.For the record--NO TRAVELLING!I also agree with BBRef's response and explanation above,too!
Btw,I just flipped on the Duke/St.Johns a few minutes ago to catch the score.I saw a Duke player tip a rebound,take a couple of steps,and then he grabbed his own tip.He then dribbled the ball.Guess what?No whistle from any of the 3 refs.Using your logic,it should have been a contolled tip and a travel.Guess they missed that one.

[mick]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

I will continue to allow the player to bat the ball until he holds the ball or begins a dribble. If the ball comes to rest in one of his hands while he is batting the ball, I now have control.

BTW, it's even more ludicrous to call this an illegal dribble. A dribble is batting the ball to the floor. Where, in this thread, was it stated that the ball was batted to the floor? Please site the rule that says you can have an illegal dribble without dribbling.

Tony,
I think we were talking about:

"Player sprints down the court with hands at waist level and taps the ball back and forth from left hand to right never letting the ball come to rest. You could run circles around your opponents never letting the ball come to rest in either hand, as long as you tap it back and forth."

Assuming player control, and then that the player bats the ball while in control... and then bats the ball again before it hit the floor I determined that I could live with an illegal dribble violation based on the difference between 4.15.4D (Dribble violation) and 4.15.4E (Moving violation).

I know you will call a violation. Which would you choose?

mick

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by mick
[/B]

Self,
I am more convinced than ever that this is an illegal dribble, and not traveling per NFHS.
And, like you, I think we can make the judgement of whether the player who batted the ball was in control.
Once we establish player control (using judgement), then we can go to, or in this case "limp to", the dribble rule and the fact that the player batted the ball twice before it hit the floor.
mick
[/B][/QUOTE]Mick,a player establishes "player control"only by actually holding the ball or dribbling it.If you judge at any time that a player gains control,I agree with you and you don't have to limp to the dribble rule at all.The dribble rule certainly now applies,as does the various travelling rules.The major question is "does a player gain control while tipping or batting a ball if it never comes to rest".Tony used an extreme case to illustrate that,but specifically said the ball didn't come to rest..A simpler case is a ballplayer tipping a rebound to himself-once or even a couple times.If the ball didn't come to rest,there's no violation.If you judge that the ball did come to rest,and he tips it again and goes and gets it(taking a coupla steps),yup its a violation.Don't know whether that makes any sense to you,podner,but it's the best I can do after the afternoon I've had.

[Oz Referee]

So can I run the length of the court with the ball pinned between my elbows?
Since you need to use your hands to hold something - this must be allowed, but common sense demands that you call a travel.

Two words people:

Common Sense!

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by mick
Tony,
I think we were talking about:

"Player sprints down the court with hands at waist level and taps the ball back and forth from left hand to right never letting the ball come to rest. You could run circles around your opponents never letting the ball come to rest in either hand, as long as you tap it back and forth."

Assuming player control, and then that the player bats the ball while in control... and then bats the ball again before it hit the floor I determined that I could live with an illegal dribble violation based on the difference between 4.15.4D (Dribble violation) and 4.15.4E (Moving violation).

I know you will call a violation. Which would you choose?

mick

First, let me make it clear that in the original thread that Self is referring to, we cannot and did not assume player control. The entire question was based on Play #4 from my Traveling Quiz.

Play #4 - A1 is in position for a rebound. He taps the rebound into the air to prevent a defender from gaining possession. He taps the ball into the air 4 times and takes 5 steps while trying to keep the ball away from the opponent. Is this a violation? Why or why not?

In this play, PC has not been established. Now, if this player continues to bat the ball as he's running down the floor without ever having establishing PC, I have nothing.

In the play you describe, with PC having been established, I have traveling. In 4.15.4D, the play starts out, "While dribbling...". That's why it's an illegal dribble. In 4.15.4E, it's traveling because the ball has not been dribbled. The ruling even calls it traveling. In your play, I do not have any illegal dribble since the ball has never been dribbled.

Originally posted by Oz Referee
So can I run the length of the court with the ball pinned between my elbows?
Since you need to use your hands to hold something - this must be allowed, but common sense demands that you call a travel.

Even though you're using sarcasm, let me answer your question without using sarcasm. That's a stupid and immature response to the situation. It's not necessary to hold the ball with both hands to have control. But it's for d@mn sure that you do have to have control to travel. Having the ball pinned between the arm and the chect is certainly not the same as batting it. Of course, under FEEBLE rules, who know? It may be GT.

There's some sarcasm for you.

[Mention of AARef is removed}

[Edited by BktBallRef on Feb 24th, 2002 at 09:03 PM]

[mick]

Originally posted by Oz Referee
So can I run the length of the court with the ball pinned between my elbows?
Since you need to use your hands to hold something - this must be allowed, but common sense demands that you call a travel.

Two words people:

Common Sense!

Duane,
Now, you know these folks have common sense.
This is an academic point that we are trying to work out without the benefit of a determination by our Fed bosses.
mick

[mick]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

First, let me make it clear that in the original thread that Self, aka AARef, is referring to, we cannot and did not assume player control. The entire question was based on Play #4 from my Traveling Quiz.

Play #4 - A1 is in position for a rebound. He taps the rebound into the air to prevent a defender from gaining possession. He taps the ball into the air 4 times and takes 5 steps while trying to keep the ball away from the opponent. Is this a violation? Why or why not?

In this play, PC has not been established. Now, if this player continues to bat the ball as he's running down the floor without ever having establishing PC, I have nothing.

In the play you describe, with PC having been established, I have traveling. In 4.15.4D, the play starts out, "While dribbling...". That's why it's an illegal dribble. In 4.15.4E, it's traveling because the ball has not been dribbled. The ruling even calls it traveling. In your play, I do not have any illegal dribble since the ball has never been dribbled.

Tony,
I was wondering where that thread was that self was talking about.
Your Play #4 : Dennis Rodman made his living doing that and finally getting the ball. No problem here.

In my play, I designated the first tap, after control, as the start of the dribble; because after establishing control like that such an action, the bat, can only be a dribble or a pass. And since the player batted to himself, it was not a pass, hence it became an illegal dribble.
mick

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by mick
I my play, I designated the first tap, after control, as the start of the dribble; because after establishing control like that such an action, the bat, can only be a dribble or a pass. And since the player batted to himself, it was not a pass, hence it became an illegal dribble.

mick,

You can't have an illegal dribble unless the ball has been dribbled.
In your play, you have nothing unless the player picks up his pivot foot and then puts it down again or starts a dribble. I such a case, you would have traveling.
Your play cannot be an illegal dribble since the ball has not been dribbled.

TH

[mick]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

mick,

You can't have an illegal dribble unless the ball has been dribbled.
In your play, you have nothing unless the player picks up his pivot foot and then puts it down again or starts a dribble. I such a case, you would have traveling.
Your play cannot be an illegal dribble since the ball has not been dribbled.

TH

The dribble starts when the ball is batted to the floor (it doesn't say straight down, or sideway, or not up). Then the ball was batted again, not caught as in 4.15.4E, but batted again as in 4.15.4D. This is a violation of dribble and not a violation of movement in a semblance of Cases 4.15.
Hey, I'm just using the tools that are available.
mick

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by mick
The dribble starts when the ball is batted to the floor (it doesn't say straight down, or sideway, or not up). Then the ball was batted again, not caught as in 4.15.4E, but batted again as in 4.15.4D. This is a violation of dribble and not a violation of movement in a semblance of Cases 4.15.
Hey, I'm just using the tools that are available.
mick

mick,

"Hello? McFly? Anybody home?"

4.15.4 SITUATION D
While dribbling: ....

This means that the player was dribbling the ball.
The ball had already touched the floor.

(a) A1 bats the ball over the head of an opponent, runs around the opponent, bats the ball to the floor and continues to dribble;

Then, he bats the ball twice before it touches the floor.
It's an illegal dribble because the ball touched the floor, and then he touched the ball twice before it hit the floor again.

In 4.15.4E, the ball never touches the floor.
In the play that you described, the ball never touches the floor.
That's why it's traveling and not an illegal dribble.

Understand?