Bktballref and all please look at this

[Self]

Input please. Bktballref said that the below is ok on another thread. I agree with others and say it is traveling... Input please... Thanks.. Others on the thread responded they feel it is traveling too. I am familiar with rule 4-12-1. In my eyes a tap described below is holding the ball.

"Sprint down the court with hands at waist level and tap the ball back and forth from left hand to right never letting the ball come to rest. You could run circles around your opponents never letting the ball come to rest in either hand, as long as you tap it back and forth.

I say this is traveling because the player is in control of the ball. It is a controlled tap. This is traveling. Bktballref said this is not traveling and he would allow it. No such thing as a controlled tap..

Thanks in advance........

[crew]

i believe you mistook the info bktballref gave, this is traveling.

[Gochron]

Sounds like walking to me.

[Jurassic Referee]

Guys,check out R-4-43.It says "Travelling(running with the ball)is moving a foot or feet in any direction in excess of prescribed limits while HOLDING the ball".In BBRef's post he said "never letting the ball come to rest".Are you ever holding the ball when it never comes to rest?Obviously not. BBRef had the right call-no travelling.

[mick]

Originally posted by Gochron
Sounds like walking to me.

Sounds like running to me.

[Self]

do the following:


"Sprint down the court with hands at waist level and tap the ball back and forth from left hand to right never letting the ball come to rest.You could run circles around your opponents never letting the ball come to rest in either hand, as long as you tap it back and forth.

and no I didn't miss quote Bktballref here is the copied answer by him:

>>>>Your telling me you are going to allow a tall player to tap the ball over his head while running down the court with control. You say why would he do this, I say because your not calling traveling. This is control of the ball, so it is traveling. Believe me it has happened. Whether you think it is sensible or not for a player to do this, if he does, are you going to let him?

Yes, I am absolutely going to let him do it because it's not against the rules.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Self
Input please. Bktballref said that the below is ok on another thread. I agree with others and say it is traveling... Input please... Thanks.. Others on the thread responded they feel it is traveling too. I am familiar with rule 4-12-1. In my eyes a tap described below is holding the ball.

"Sprint down the court with hands at waist level and tap the ball back and forth from left hand to right never letting the ball come to rest. You could run circles around your opponents never letting the ball come to rest in either hand, as long as you tap it back and forth.

I say this is traveling because the player is in control of the ball. It is a controlled tap. This is traveling. Bktballref said this is not traveling and he would allow it. No such thing as a controlled tap..

Thanks in advance........

This is your exact,original post above.YOU quote BBRef as saying "never letting the ball come to rest".Then you say this is travelling.If the ball doesn't come to rest,the player CAN'T be holding it,and therefore CAN'T travel.That's what the rule I stated(R4-43) says.If you think different,please cite a rule,any rule,to back up your contention.

[Self]

posted as an explanation.

"Clearly tapping the ball in the manner you decribed is an advantage for a person and should be called a travel. That is the intent of the travel rule. Rule 2-3 can be used to clarify this. That is exactly why it is there. Clearly the player is in control of the ball by tapping it in such a manner to advance down the court. The rules cannot be all inclusive. Everything cannot be spelled out and every possible word for control cannot be used. 2-3 is there for referee judgement on items that are not specifically covered."

"Websters definition of holding is "to take and keep with hands" it doesn't say anything has to be at rest. So I can screen you with by body while I tap the ball up in the air and I am holding it away from you."

Clearly this is not difficult to understand. I can not believe you are really going to allow this in a game. Not trying to be sarcastic, I just do not understand how you would allow this. Please don't just say there is no EXACT verbage in teh rules that says you can't do this... THE INTENT OF THE RULES.

[Jurassic Referee]

Self,I suggest you contact your local rules interpreter and get his/her ruling.It's pointless to argue this any further.

[Self]

I am just a little shocked. You still have not answered. Would you allow the below without calling traveling... Yes or No?

"Player sprints down the court with hands at waist level and taps the ball back and forth from left hand to right never letting the ball come to rest. You could run circles around your opponents never letting the ball come to rest in either hand, as long as you tap it back and forth.

[mick]

Originally posted by Self
I am just a little shocked. You still have not answered. Would you allow the below without calling traveling... Yes or No?

"Player sprints down the court with hands at waist level and taps the ball back and forth from left hand to right never letting the ball come to rest. You could run circles around your opponents never letting the ball come to rest in either hand, as long as you tap it back and forth.

Self,
No they would not allow that.
mick

Trust your partner.

[Self]

Now jurasssic Ref is basically saying he would. Asking me to talk to rules interpreter.

This one is a no brainer. For your info Jurassic Ref I consider myself a rules expert and have enough confidence that both IAABO and NFHS will call this traveling or an illegal dribble. Most definitely a violation.

What state do you call in?

[Edited by Self on Feb 24th, 2002 at 01:03 PM]

[mick]

Originally posted by Self
Now jurasssic Ref is basically saying he would. Asking me to talk to rules interpreter.

This one is a no brainer. For your info Jurassic Ref I consider myself a rules expert and have enough confidence that both IAABO and NFHS will call this traveling.

What state do you call in?

Self,
I am more convinced than ever that this is an illegal dribble, and not traveling per NFHS.
And, like you, I think we can make the judgement of whether the player who batted the ball was in control.
Once we establish player control (using judgement), then we can go to, or in this case "limp to", the dribble rule and the fact that the player batted the ball twice before it hit the floor.
mick

[bluezebra]

self:

"Websters definition of holding is "to take and keep with hands" it doesn't say anything has to be at rest. So I can screen you with by body while I tap the ball up in the air and I am holding it away from you."

What do you think TAKE and KEEP mean, if not holding the ball?

I haven't worked basketball in years, but have found my FED 1993-94 Case Book. Here's what it says:

4.15.4D. Play: (a) A1 tosses the ball from one hand to the other while keeping his or her pivot foot in contact with the floor; or (b) A1 throws the ball over the head of B1 and then takes several steps before catching it. Ruling: Legal in (a), but a traveling violation in (b). In (b), A1 may not move his or her pivot foot without violating. Since the ball did not touch the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is not part of a dribble nor is it the start and end of a dribble.

Therefore, passing or batting the ball back and forth while moving, without the ball touching the floor, is a VIOLATION.

Bob

[Self]

I am in agreement. It is a violation whether traveling or illegal dribble it is a violation. I have said that in all the above.

Jurassic Ref and Bktballref have said it was a legal play.

The holding verbage was semantics. I do not feel teh rules book needs to provide every word for holding for me to understand controlling the ball. I am holding it if it is at rest between my knees, I am holding it if I am resting it in my palm, I am holding it away from my opponent if a am tapping the ball from left hand to right hand. I am controlling the ball and the play described is a violation.