time put back on the clock??

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

There's no monitor to use--like NCAA rules.

FYI...the ncaa rule I posted is the the no monitor version.

FWIW... *IF* I thought the lag was there and *IF* I thought the timer had definite knowledge I would put the additional .2 on the clock. I would definitely not put it on after the FTs were attempted.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by pizanno

so the scorer was looking at his console (not the play?!)

Why would the timer need to look at the play? He stops the clock on the whistle.

[pizanno]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Why would the timer need to look at the play? He stops the clock on the whistle.

I always tell my table staff that in addition to being an active part of our crew, they should always be ready to give an opinion that will save our butts on something we should know, but for whatever reason we don't (the ball went in the basket; foul # or shooter; etc.)

Are you suggesting you prefer your timers to look at their console, not live ball play?

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Rule 5-6-2EXCEPTION 3 allows for situations that occur like that at the end of a period and it directs us not to put any time back on the clock.

I don't read where it instructs us to NOT put any time back on the clock. Maybe I'm not looking in the right place. I agree with what you are saying but can also see where you could argue that you can add time back up.

Since the FED took out Lag time we are now able to put up the exact time observed on the clock after a whistle. I suppose you could argue what exactly is considered so close that you can't get it stopped.

In the past Lag time took care of this argument, now since we really don't have a number to use then this is where I can see that the book would back either ruling. If I blow my whistle and look up and see .2 on the clock then time runs out and I can put .2 up on the clock if I should chose to. With the Lag time rule I couldn't.

In the OP's play you had foul, whistle, then horn. I can see having a play where there is foul, horn then whistle. In this type of play then I certainly think there would be no argument that the foul happened so close to the expiration that the timer couldn't stop the clock.

I still agree that in this play the book would support either ruling especially since they definitely had a whistle before the horn and the timer observed exact time on the clock.

Again in my game I'm calling it. The OP' oster asked if they were wrong. IMO I say no since I think the rule book would support the ruling even though I wouldn't adjudicate the rule in the same manner.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

FWIW... *IF* I thought the lag was there and *IF* I thought the timer had definite knowledge I would put the additional .2 on the clock.

The only time that you have rules justification to put time back on is if the timer actually screws up. If it's just the normal lag from a timer hearing the whistle and then flicking the switch, then by rule you can't adjust anything. What the timer sees when he starts to flick the switch means squat. You just go by what's on the clock after he flicked the switch, as long as he didn't delay switching it.

The rules will only allow us do something only if the timer is late stopping the clock.

Iirc we had a long thread on something like this just a week or two ago.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

I don't read where it instructs us to NOT put any time back on the clock. Maybe I'm not looking in the right place.

Look in the place that says "The quarter or extra period ENDS when the free throw(s) and all related activity have been completed."

The rule that you're trying to use to put time back on is labeled "TIMING MISTAKES". The timer didn't make a mistake. The timer stopped the clock properly and by rule as soon as he heard the whistle. The rules allow for that slight lag if the horn sounds before the clock can be stopped. You're trying to apply a rule that isn't relevant.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Look in the place that says "The quarter or extra period ENDS when the free throw(s) and all related activity have been completed."

The rule that you're trying to use to put time back on is labeled "TIMING MISTAKES". The timer didn't make a mistake. The timer stopped the clock properly and by rule as soon as he heard the whistle. The rules allow for that slight lag if the horn sounds before the clock can be stopped. You're trying to apply a rule that isn't relevant.

Obviously I see where it says it ends but it doesn't INSTRUCT us to not put time on. Lag time is gone which used to give us a number to work with to define lag which gave instruction on when to add or not. That is no longer in the book, if its not in the book then it is left upto us what we would consider lag or mistake.

Maybe the timer could've stopped it since the whistle was clearly before the horn and left time on the clock maybe he couldn't. Its left upto us to decide what is a timing mistake and what isn't. What you think is lag may be considered a timing error by the next guy. I'm with you that if this was my game I'm gone. However the "R" on this game might have thought it was a mistake. If he did then by rule he can add time.

There's nothing in the rule that says we can't add time back to the clock. The only question/judgment is left upto us whether we thought there was a timing mistake.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The only time that you have rules justification to put time back on is if the timer actually screws up. If it's just the normal lag from a timer hearing the whistle and then flicking the switch, then by rule you can't adjust anything. What the timer sees when he starts to flick the switch means squat. You just go by what's on the clock after he flicked the switch, as long as he didn't delay switching it.

The rules will only allow us do something only if the timer is late stopping the clock.

Iirc we had a long thread on something like this just a week or two ago.

We always have a long thread on something like this.

The rules allow us to change the clock with definite knowledge. IMO *IF* the timer somehow has definite knowledge I'm going with that *IF* I believe the clock is wrong.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by pizanno

I always tell my table staff that in addition to being an active part of our crew, they should always be ready to give an opinion that will save our butts on something we should know, but for whatever reason we don't (the ball went in the basket; foul # or shooter; etc.)

Are you suggesting you prefer your timers to look at their console, not live ball play?

I'm not suggesting either. Like you I want the table aware of what's going on. If the timer happens to be looking at the console and that saves my azz I'm a happy camper.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The rules allow for that slight lag if the horn sounds before the clock can be stopped.

Reference?

Is it possible you're still considering the "lag time" principles? 5-10-1 allows for corrections with "definite information", and 5.10.1SitD says, "The timer and scorer and other official(s) can be used by the referee to gain definite information". So, if the scorer says they definitely saw 0.2 on the clock at the time of the whistle, then I have definite information there was 0.2 left, no matter how quickly or slowly they hit the button.

In this case, I can't see how you would put the time back on after the FT's. If I can find out before the FT's there's 0.2 left, I'm putting it on.

[BLydic]

Originally Posted by pizanno

I call "shennanigans".

Bubba fan?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

1) Reference?

2) "The timer and scorer and other official(s) can be used by the referee to gain definite information". So, if the scorer says they definitely saw 0.2 on the clock at the time of the whistle, then I have definite information there was 0.2 left, no matter how quickly or slowly they hit the button.

1) What part of rule 5-6-2EXCEPTION3 didn't you comprehend the first 113 times that I posted it?

2) Can you point out to me where I can find the timing MISTAKE in that sequence? You can adjust the time for a timing MISTAKE using definite knowledge. That's rule 5-10. You can't adjust the clock per the oft-cited rule above if the timer simply stops the clock normally per rule 5-8-1(a). There's 2 different rules covering 2 different situations. You're trying to apply a rule that isn't applicable.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) What part of rule 5-6-2EXCEPTION3 didn't you comprehend the first 113 times that I posted it?

2) Can you point out to me where I can find the timing MISTAKE in that sequence? You can adjust the time for a timing MISTAKE using definite knowledge. That's rule 5-10. You can't adjust the clock per the oft-cited rule above if the timer simply stops the clock normally per rule 5-8-1(a). There's 2 different rules covering 2 different situations. You're trying to apply a rule that isn't applicable.

OK..lets try it this way. Does it say anywhere that I can't add time if the official concludes that there was a mistake?

If it doesn't then the "R" in this play is rule supported if he concluded the timer made a mistake by not stopping the time fast enough. Since there is nothing in the book that says the timer has so much time to stop the clock, such as lag time, then its simply left up to the official to decide if it was a timing error or not.

You & I on this play conclude that its not a timing error. The "R" on this play did therefore the rules support him/her adding time.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) What part of rule 5-6-2EXCEPTION3 didn't you comprehend the first 113 times that I posted it?

The part that has to do with correcting the mistake. This section deals with "if you know the foul happened before the horn, you still shoot FT's even though the horn went off". Especially if we don't know how much time to put back on the clock. Iow, we can't just wave off FT's because the horn went off and we are not putting time back on.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

2) Can you point out to me where I can find the timing MISTAKE in that sequence?

The part where there is definite information the whistle blew at 0.2, but the clock didn't stop at 0.2.

If the official looked up at the clock and saw 6.0 seconds when they blow the whistle, and the clock stops at (a)6.0, (b)5.9, (c)5.1, or (d)2.1, what time does the official tell the timer to put on the clock? Of course, we put 6.0 in every case now, because we have definite knowledge. There is no more lag time. And, the case play also tells us the timer can be used for obtaining the definite knowledge.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You can adjust the time for a timing MISTAKE using definite knowledge.

Cool, we agree.

[Camron Rust]

The timer is to stop the clock when the whistle blows. If the timer had time to look at the console and see 0.2, the timer also had time to flip the switch. If, for some reason, the timer's finger slippped or the timer hesitated, that is a mistake. Time should be put back on the clock. When ANY official (including the timer) sees time on the clock (console included) after the whistle, that IS the time that gets restored. There is no lag time...the clock is supposed to stop at the same time as the whistle.

Imagine if the time, instead of 0.2, were 0.3, 0.5, 0.8 or even 1.5. Where is the line drawn? If the clock stops at anything less than any of the officiating crew sees on/after the whistle, it is a mistake.