time put back on the clock??

[Back In The Saddle]

There does seem to be some ambiguity between 5-6-2 Ex. 3 and 5-10. The exception still seems to allow for lag time, a concept that was supposedly removed a couple of years ago. While 5-10-1 allows the official to put back on the exact time that was observed and 5-8-1 indicates that the clock is to stop when the official signals to stop the clock.

To my feeble mind, I believe the only way to bring order to these seemingly conflicting rules is by prioritizing. And the priority, to my way of thinking, is that if we have definite knowledge of the time that was on the clock when the signal was given, that time should be placed back on the clock. If the exact time is not known, and the timer was unable to stop the clock before time expired, then we live with the time expiring.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

There does seem to be some ambiguity between 5-6-2 Ex. 3 and 5-10. The exception still seems to allow for lag time, a concept that was supposedly removed a couple of years ago. While 5-10-1 allows the official to put back on the exact time that was observed and 5-8-1 indicates that the clock is to stop when the official signals to stop the clock.

The rules don't conflict. They're different rules for different situations.

Rule 5-10-1 is only used when there is a timer's mistake.....i.e the timer stopped the clock wrongly.

Rule 5-6-2EXCEPTION covers a very specific situation only(the end of a period) and is only applicable if the timer hasn't made a mistake in stopping the clock. Case book pay 5.6.2SitG confirms that.

Apples and oranges...and different rules for different situations.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

OK..lets try it this way. Does it say anywhere that I can't add time if the official concludes that there was a mistake?

Nope. If there was a mistake, you can put time back on.

See case book play 5.6.2SitG. though. That covers the play we're discussing.....a foul in the act of shooting followed by the end of a period while the ball is in flight. Note the time lag between the foul occurring and the end of the period(the act of shooting ends when the ball left the shooter's hands...the foul occurred before the ball left the shooter's hands). Note that NO time is put back on the clock in that case play. That's because the timer did NOT make a mistake in stopping the clock.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The rules don't conflict. They're different rules for different situations.

Rule 5-10-1 is only used when there is a timer's mistake.....i.e the timer stopped the clock wrongly.

Rule 5-6-2EXCEPTION covers a very specific situation only(the end of a period) and is only applicable if the timer hasn't made a mistake in stopping the clock. Case book pay 5.6.2SitG confirms that.

Apples and oranges...and different rules for different situations.

And wrongly is anytime it stops at a point after a time observed once the whistle has blown.

If the whistle blows and then the horn blows so quickly after that noone sees a time or there is no difference in the time seen, that is the point of 5-6-2Ex.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

And wrongly is anytime it stops at a point after a time observed once the whistle has blown.

If the whistle blows and then the horn blows so quickly after that noone sees a time or there is no difference in the time seen, that is the point of 5-6-2Ex.

Disagree completely. That is NOT what R5-6-2EXCEPTION3 says. Case book play 5.6.2SitG completely disagrees with you also. If you were right, the difference from the time when the whistle was blown for the foul to the end of the period would be put back on the clock in both the EXCEPTION and the case play. It isn't!

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Case book play 5.6.2SitG completely disagrees with you also. If you were right, the difference from the time when the whistle was blown for the foul to the end of the period would be put back on the clock in the case play. It isn't!

I have agreed with you up to this point, but this case makes no mention of anyone seeing any amount of time, before, at, or after the official's signal, so how is it applicable here?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I have agreed with you up to this point, but this case makes no mention of anyone seeing any amount of time, before, at, or after the official's signal, so how is it applicable here?

In fact, the rule and case cited don't even mention the whistle...the only thing mentioned is the infraction occurring and time expiring. If anything is to be assumed, it would be that the official's reaction in blowing the whistle was such that the horn sounded before or simultaneous with the whistle....in that case, no time restored since there had been no signal to indicate that the clock should stop.

Every new interpretation offered with the removal of lag time says that the time seen on the clock once the whistle is blown is restored to the clock. There is no distinction between 0.1 second and 2.0 seconds. If you see it, you put it back. Before, you'd only put it back if the delta were greater than 1 second. That's all that changed. You're suggesting that there is still some threshhold where you don't put it back.


Let's assume you (Jurrassic) are right. How much time does it take before you'd put something back??? How much time must you observe on the clock before it is not "so near" that you'll put it back?

You're not going to reply, I know, because you won't be able to post an answer that has any backing. If you do reply with a number, you'll be completely making it up.

Imagine the whistle blows at 2.0 and everyone sees 2.0 but the timer drops the handheld switchbox and can't get it stopped for 2 seconds. According to you, since the timer stopped it as fast as they could (there is no mention in the rule of exceptions to the exception), no adjustment can be made. Of course, this is preposterous.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Every new interpretation offered with the removal of lag time says that the time seen on the clock once the whistle is blown is restored to the clock. There is no distinction between 0.1 second and 2.0 seconds. If you see it, you put it back. Before, you'd only put it back if the delta were greater than 1 second. That's all that changed. You're suggesting that there is still some threshhold where you don't put it back.


Let's assume you (Jurrassic) are right. How much time does it take before you'd put something back??? How much time must you observe on the clock before it is not "so near" that you'll put it back?

You're not going to reply, I know, because you won't be able to post an answer that has any backing. If you do reply with a number, you'll be completely making it up.

Imagine the whistle blows at 2.0 and everyone sees 2.0 but the timer drops the handheld switchbox and can't get it stopped for 2 seconds. According to you, since the timer stopped it as fast as they could (there is no mention in the rule of exceptions to the exception), no adjustment can be made. Of course, this is preposterous.

What's preposterous is this much arguing about two tenths of a second. Two tenths. Not two seconds. I don't know what the threshold is, but it's sure greater than two tenths of a second. In the OP the time told the refs AFTER the shots were taken that she had seen two tenths. I'm doubting that. And the game is over. No rules basis to do anything else.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Let's assume you (Jurrassic) are right. How much time does it take before you'd put something back??? How much time must you observe on the clock before it is not "so near" that you'll put it back?

You're not going to reply, I know, because you won't be able to post an answer that has any backing. If you do reply with a number, you'll be completely making it up.

Imagine the whistle blows at 2.0 and everyone sees 2.0 but the timer drops the handheld switchbox and can't get it stopped for 2 seconds. According to you, since the timer stopped it as fast as they could (there is no mention in the rule of exceptions to the exception), no adjustment can be made. Of course, this is preposterous.

I posted the answer and the rules citations that back it that answer. Unfortunately, you don't have a clue what I'm talking about, as usual.

You can put time back on the clock ONLY if the timer makes a MISTAKE. That's rule 5-10. If the timer DOESN'T make a MISTAKE, there is NO rule in the book that will allow you to put time back on the clock. If you think differently, and you obviously do, then cite a rule...any rule...that will allow an official to put time back on the clock when there hasn't been a timing mistake.

The play that you detailed above is a timer's MISTAKE! It has got absolutely nothing to do with the play being discussed. In the play being discussed, there was NO timer's mistake.

And when you get a chance, maybe you can also explain why no time is put back on the clock in case book 5.6.2SitG. In that play, the foul occurred BEFORE the ball was in flight and time expired AFTER the ball was in flight. That's why 5-6-2EXCEPTION3 is in the rule book.

I gave you the applicable rules citation. Now see if you you can find a rule...any rule... that will allow an official to put time back on the clock when the timer hasn't made a mistake. I await your reply.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And when you get a chance, maybe you can also explain why no time is put back on the clock in case book 5.6.2SitG. In that play, the foul occurred BEFORE the ball was in flight and time expired AFTER the ball was in flight.

I got this one. Because in 5.6.2.SitG no one has any definite knowledge of any time to put on the clock. The point of this case is when the game ends, and has nothing to do with time on the clock.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I posted the answer and the rules citations that back it that answer. Unfortunately, you don't have a clue what I'm talking about, as usual.

I know exacly the made up interpretation you're talking about...that's the problem. You refuse to enforce the rule as written but prefer the use your own personal version....the very thing you preach against.

Those cases are only partially relevant....because you're defining timer's mistake in a way that is not in the book....you're making up your own definition so you don't have to admit you're wrong. The timer is supposed to stop the clock on the whistle.

Rule 5-6- Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, shall be stopped when an official: ART 1...Signals: (a) foul (b) held ball (c) a violation) ART. 2 ....

Note that is says the clock shall be stopped when an official...signals. It doesn't say soon after the official signals...it says when. That means at the same time....before lag time was removed, it meant soon (< 1 sec) after. But now, it is the same time.

If they don't....they've made a mistake. Any delay is a mistake, by rule. If they stop it ANY after the whistle, the time is to be restored if there is definite knowledge of how much time was on the clock. It is obvious if you can tell time was on the clock when the whistle was blown and the horn comes after.

The fact that you can't cite how much time separates when it is a mistake versus when it is not a mistake or define what a mistake is versus normal behavior exposes your argument for what it is....wrong.

Again, I ask and await your answer...by what criteria do you seperate mistake from non-mistake? 0.1 sec, 0.2, 0.3, 0.4, 0.5....1.5, 5.0, 10.0??? How much time does it take to become a mistake???

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And when you get a chance, maybe you can also explain why no time is put back on the clock in case book 5.6.2SitG. In that play, the foul occurred BEFORE the ball was in flight and time expired AFTER the ball was in flight. That's why 5-6-2EXCEPTION3 is in the rule book.

It makes no mention of the whistle...the clock stops on the whistle, not the infraction. The timer is not expected to stop the clock before the whistle. The implication in that situation is that the referee (seeing the whole play) doesn't blow the whistle instantly but blows it as the shot is released.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Note that is says the clock shall be stopped when an official...signals. It doesn't say soon after the official signals...it says when. That means at the same time....before lag time was removed, it meant soon (< 1 sec) after. But now, it is the same time.

If they don't....they've made a mistake. Any delay is a mistake, by rule. If they stop it ANY after the whistle, the time is to be restored if there is definite knowledge of how much time was on the clock.

Camron, if what you're saying is true, then every time the clock stops, there's a timing error, and we should be looking at the clock every time we blow the whistle and putting time back on the clock, every time we blow the whistle. That is the only possible interpretation to what you're saying. And it's laughable. There's no way that can be what the Rules Committee intended when they took lag time out of the rule book.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Camron, if what you're saying is true, then every time the clock stops, there's a timing error, and we should be looking at the clock every time we blow the whistle and putting time back on the clock, every time we blow the whistle. That is the only possible interpretation to what you're saying. And it's laughable. There's no way that can be what the Rules Committee intended when they took lag time out of the rule book.

No, it's not what they intended...and have actually said as much....and intent is what this is all about. I'm not going to go dig it all up but the explaination of the changes said that such precision was only intened for the closing seconds of a quarter/game....not with 3 minutes on the clock.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

No, it's not what they intended...and have actually said as much....and intent is what this is all about. I'm not going to go dig it all up but the explaination of the changes said that such precision was only intened for the closing seconds of a quarter/game....not with 3 minutes on the clock.

So, we're supposed to use one set of timing rules for 99% of the game, and then in the "closing seconds" switch to some other set of rules that aren't clearly spelled out as being different? Huh?? How were we supposed to know this??

How many closing seconds? 5 seconds? 10 seconds? Of any quarter?? Any game?? Even if the score is a 50 point spread? If this is what they intended, why aren't they telling us more specifically, more directly, more IN THE RULES AND CASE BOOK that we need to look at the clock every time we blow the whistle, so that we can get the correct time back onto the clock to finish out the game?

There's physically no way for the clock to stop exactly when the whistle blows, unless the refs are using PT, which most high school games don't. The rules committee knows that. And they've never indicated that we're supposed to make the "closing seconds" PT-like. Now you're saying we should?

In the OP, there was no timing mistake. The clock operator turned off the clock as fast as possible, and within the rules. So there's no rules basis to put time back on the clock. Until you can show a rulebook, casebook, or official's manual citation to prove otherwise, I don't see how you can justify your position from some obscure paragraph that has to be "dug up".