Putting time back on the clock

[drs]

Long time reader of this forum, first time post.

This year has been the year of clock issues for my crew. Here is one specific example that I want to get opinions on.

End of first half, home team A legally spikes the ball in an attempt to get one more play. As soon as the spike occurs and as the clock is being killed, the LJ immediately looks at the clock and sees 0.8 seconds left. Incidentally, A's head coach also notices time left on the clock. However, the clock operator does not stop the clock in time and the clock runs to zero.

Do you put the 0.8 back on the clock?
If not, what is your threshold by which you would put time back on the clock (1 second, 2 seconds, ...)?

We have had all kinds of discussions on this. On one side is the "if you put time back here, then why not every time you notice an extra second run off". The other is "A is spiking the ball legally to get one extra play and therefore you should not take that away from them just because the clock operator failed". There have been others as well.

Thanks.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by drs

Long time reader of this forum, first time post.

This year has been the year of clock issues for my crew. Here is one specific example that I want to get opinions on.

End of first half, home team A legally spikes the ball in an attempt to get one more play. As soon as the spike occurs and as the clock is being killed, the LJ immediately looks at the clock and sees 0.8 seconds left. Incidentally, A's head coach also notices time left on the clock. However, the clock operator does not stop the clock in time and the clock runs to zero.

Do you put the 0.8 back on the clock?
If not, what is your threshold by which you would put time back on the clock (1 second, 2 seconds, ...)?

We have had all kinds of discussions on this. On one side is the "if you put time back here, then why not every time you notice an extra second run off". The other is "A is spiking the ball legally to get one extra play and therefore you should not take that away from them just because the clock operator failed". There have been others as well.

Thanks.

I have a background in Federation basketball. Fed basketball specifically addresses human reaction time when it comes to timing errors/non-errors.

Does the Fed football rulebook deal with human reaction time? If so, then you have to go with that. If not, then I think that A is permitted one more play.

In the middle of the game, that second that ticks off is not important. If these middle-of-game seconds were that important, then yes our practice would be to add them to the clock. We don't though, do we? A legally ended a play before time ran out. They are afforded the timing rule as written in the book.

Unless there's a case book play or an AR, then they get one more play.

[wisref2]

Didn't the Federation remove the human reaction time from the timing rule in basketball? I seem to recall they did that last year or the year before.

As far as football, our wings and the guy facing the clock keep an eye on the clock near the end of quarters, when timeouts are called, etc. We added time probably four times this year. If its in the middle of the quarter, say after stopping the clock for a first down, I might hold my ready for play to make up for the lost time - and we tell the coaches what we're doing.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by wisref2

Didn't the Federation remove the human reaction time from the timing rule in basketball? I seem to recall they did that last year or the year before.

As far as football, our wings and the guy facing the clock keep an eye on the clock near the end of quarters, when timeouts are called, etc. We added time probably four times this year. If its in the middle of the quarter, say after stopping the clock for a first down, I might hold my ready for play to make up for the lost time - and we tell the coaches what we're doing.

Yes. The rule now is that what it is is what it is. No lag time. Does Fed football even address the issue? If not, I take it to mean that there is no human reaction time. If the whistle goes at 0.8, then there is 0.8 left.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by drs

We have had all kinds of discussions on this. On one side is the "if you put time back here, then why not every time you notice an extra second run off". The other is "A is spiking the ball legally to get one extra play and therefore you should not take that away from them just because the clock operator failed". There have been others as well.

Just on gen'l principles...if there was a lag stopping the clock, there was probably a lag starting it whenever it was last started. How can you justify restoring one lag interval and not compensating the other way?

Robert

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Just on gen'l principles...if there was a lag stopping the clock, there was probably a lag starting it whenever it was last started. How can you justify restoring one lag interval and not compensating the other way?

Robert

If you've ever scorekept a Fed basketball game, you should know that these two lag times are not equal, imho.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Yes. The rule now is that what it is is what it is. No lag time. Does Fed football even address the issue? If not, I take it to mean that there is no human reaction time. If the whistle goes at 0.8, then there is 0.8 left.

First of all, FED football doesn't recognize tenths of seconds. It's either 1 second or it's zero.

As for FED addressing timing issues, I found the following:

The 2007 edition of High School Football Rules Illustrated states, "Obvious errors in timing may be corrected by the referee if the discovery of the error is made prior to the second live ball following the error, unless the period has official ended. No other adjustments in timing is authorized."

The 2006 edition of High School Football Rules by Topic states adds as rationale, "The correction procedure applies to obvious errors. The coverage does not authorize attempting to correct trivial or incidental lag starting or stopping the clock. The error must be in an acknowledged discrepancy in the time and does include a slight lag due to human reaction. Correctable errors will have resulted for a failure to apply the provision of the timing rule on the part of the official or failure of the clock operator to follow the direction of the field official, or from a mechanic (sic) failure of the clock. The error to be corrected must not involve judgment. In a situation in which the clock was not stopped after the score of during the administration of a penalty, the referee is permitted to put time back on the clock. If there had been a failure to start the clock with the snap following an incomplete forward pass, or with the legal touching of the free kick following a touchdown, the referee would be permitted to compensate by taking time off the clock."

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Does the Fed football rulebook deal with human reaction time? If so, then you have to go with that.

Originally Posted by waltjp

As for FED addressing timing issues, I found the following:

The 2007 edition of High School Football Rules Illustrated states, "Obvious errors in timing may be corrected by the referee if the discovery of the error is made prior to the second live ball following the error, unless the period has official ended. No other adjustments in timing is authorized."

The 2006 edition of High School Football Rules by Topic states adds as rationale, "The correction procedure applies to obvious errors. The coverage does not authorize attempting to correct trivial or incidental lag starting or stopping the clock. The error must be in an acknowledged discrepancy in the time and does include a slight lag due to human reaction. Correctable errors will have resulted for a failure to apply the provision of the timing rule on the part of the official or failure of the clock operator to follow the direction of the field official, or from a mechanic (sic) failure of the clock. The error to be corrected must not involve judgment. In a situation in which the clock was not stopped after the score of during the administration of a penalty, the referee is permitted to put time back on the clock. If there had been a failure to start the clock with the snap following an incomplete forward pass, or with the legal touching of the free kick following a touchdown, the referee would be permitted to compensate by taking time off the clock."

So there it is: the Fed addresses the issue. However, it doens't get specific. In Fed bball, human reaction time was limited to one second. If I'm a home timer, my slight lag might be different depending on who has the clock as their 12th man. It's unfortunate, but I'm sure it happens.

Originally Posted by waltjp

First of all, FED football doesn't recognize tenths of seconds. It's either 1 second or it's zero.

Not sure why. Kinda dumb actually.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Not sure why. Kinda dumb actually.

What advantage is gained by timing football in tenths of seconds?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by waltjp

What advantage is gained by timing football in tenths of seconds?

I rarely do this, but I am going to answer a question with a question:

What disadvantage is gained by timing football in tenths of seconds? Those clocks with tenths only show tenths under a minute left in the quarter.

If a school's clock has tenths of a second displayed, then it doesn't mean that the game lasts longer. Maybe the school has a reason to have tenths displayed. There is a field near my place that had a clock donated by a professional football club - it was "their old one". It has tenths. Is that clock not allowed to be used in Fed football games?

When a clock initially shows 15:00 minutes, it likely changes to 14:59 as soon as the clock operator turns the switch on. In reality, there is 14:59.99s (9 repeating) in the internal memory. Likewise, when the clock reads 00:00, there could be as much as 00:00.9s left. If that human working the clock can stop the clock with 0.9s remaining, then the game shouldn't be over.

Then, again Fed basketball has a specific rule that the game is over when the clock horn sounds, not when the display shows 00:00. For Fed football to not address the same situation is an oversight.

[Mike51]

I really don't like the game clock being displayed in tenths in football. Here's why: Say Team A gains a first down and is tackled inbounds. The clock stops at 0.8 and we move the chains. Rules say that all A players must be set for one second after the RFP. With the clock starting on the ready, technically, how can they get set?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Mike51

I really don't like the game clock being displayed in tenths in football. Here's why: Say Team A gains a first down and is tackled inbounds. The clock stops at 0.8 and we move the chains. Rules say that all A players must be set for one second after the RFP. With the clock starting on the ready, technically, how can they get set?

If I understand the interpretation correctly, it does not specify that the offense being set for one second must occur entirely after the RFP.

Ready For Play to Snap Time Interval

[TXMike]

Originally Posted by Mike51

I really don't like the game clock being displayed in tenths in football. Here's why: Say Team A gains a first down and is tackled inbounds. The clock stops at 0.8 and we move the chains. Rules say that all A players must be set for one second after the RFP. With the clock starting on the ready, technically, how can they get set?

NCAA rules do not require a 1 sec stop after the RFP

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

What disadvantage is gained by timing football in tenths of seconds? Those clocks with tenths only show tenths under a minute left in the quarter.

Glad you asked. In another post somewhere is was noted that some idiot referee decided that because the scoreboard clock showed 0.8 seconds remaining there wasn't enough time for a team to legally snap the ball and he declared the game over.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Glad you asked. In another post somewhere is was noted that some idiot referee decided that because the scoreboard clock showed 0.8 seconds remaining there wasn't enough time for a team to legally snap the ball and he declared the game over.

I've been doing this thing called officiating long enough to have realized that this could be a problem. IMHO, things like this (which aren't an issue in Cdn ball - we have our own issues) are some of what separates a good official from a great official.

When we start, our first goal is to become consistent within ourselves. The next steps are becoming consistent within the groups that we're associated with as our careers develop: the local association, other local associations - possibly for state playoffs.

A truly great WH will know all these "little things" and conduct the game in that manner. A good WH will likely have no problems until little quirks like this come up. How often does less than a second remain in the 4th quarter with the clock stopped?

I think this is one reason that Matt Hasselbach (sp?) said of Ed Hochuli: "I'm glad someone out there knows the rules".

Sadly, the "idiot referee" might have been new to the Referee position, and his exposure to these "little things" is minimal. (I've trained about 3 new white hats this season. They've all done well, but it has been little things that they need to work on.)