What is your call ?

[dave30]

Offensive player is on a one-man fastbreak obviously taking it to the basket real strong. Defensive player braces for the collision by jumping straight up, but while jumping sticks out his forearm and turns a bit. Offensive player crashes into defensive player and takes the forearm to the face. Both players crash on the floor.

It happened to me tonight. I had a "no call"...not really!

Actually, I called a player control foul and got the coaches, fans, and players all riled up!

I explained that the defensive player jumped straight up and only had his arm up to protect himself. In my opinion, the offensive player went in with the intent to draw a foul, not to score, and I thought it was player control.

What do you think? Was I right?

[hoosierref]

Sounds like it was one of those you had to see to call. To me it sounds like the right call with defensive player jumping straight up. Did A1 go straight into him or just to the side making contact???

[Nevadaref]

The guard may legally jump. He may legally turn or duck, but he must remain within his vertical plane. If he didn't by sticking out his forearm, then his action was illegal.

[dave30]

The offensive player went straight into the defender.

The only part where I question myself is whether or not the raising of the forearm to brace for a collision (and then the offensive player's face crashed into it) is enough to justify calling it a block on the defense.

In my mind, I have no doubt the offensive player's ONLY intention was to create contact and crash into the defender.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by dave30

Offensive player is on a one-man fastbreak obviously taking it to the basket real strong. Defensive player braces for the collision by jumping straight up, but while jumping sticks out his forearm and turns a bit. Offensive player crashes into defensive player and takes the forearm to the face. Both players crash on the floor.

It happened to me tonight. I had a "no call"...not really!

Actually, I called a player control foul and got the coaches, fans, and players all riled up!

I explained that the defensive player jumped straight up and only had his arm up to protect himself. In my opinion, the offensive player went in with the intent to draw a foul, not to score, and I thought it was player control.

What do you think? Was I right?

Team B player is permitted to jump straight up - s/he has maintained position via the principle of verticality. In addition, there is allowance to protect oneself by rotating the torso or using hands/arms where there is a pending collision. There is no restriction that one of these two elements changes when both are in place.

I'd like to know how this forearm was extended - so it's a had to see play - because if the forearm was out of the cylinder, I have a block. If the forearm was just (almost) immediately in front on his own torso, I have a PC.

IMHO, you made the correct call.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by dave30

In my mind, I have no doubt the offensive player's ONLY intention was to create contact and crash into the defender.

I've had several Rec players with this same attitude and demeanor and they never understand why I call the offensive foul.....probably, because none of the other Refs do....

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

I'd like to know how this forearm was extended - so it's a had to see play - because if the forearm was out of the cylinder, I have a block. If the forearm was just (almost) immediately in front on his own torso, I have a PC.

Would anybody call a foul on a player setting a screen if they just had their forearms in front of their body?

The forearms being out of the cylinder doesn't automatically make the call a block. Being up in the air has no real significance on the call either, as long as the defender isn't jumping towards the offensive player.

Rule 10-6-4--A player may hold his/her hand(s) and arm(s) in front of his/her own face or body for protection and to absorb force from an imminent charge by an opponent."

Straight judgment call imo. It depends on what you think the defender is doing with his forearms. If the forearms are just there....passive.....and the offensive player initiates contact on what would have been the defender's torso except for the forearms, I'd have a charge in that case. That's why this one is a htbt call, as you said above. Can't really tell without seeing it.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Would anybody call a foul on a player setting a screen if they just had their forearms in front of their body?

The forearms being out of the cylinder doesn't automatically make the call a block. Being up in the air has no real significance on the call either, as long as the defender isn't jumping towards the offensive player.

Rule 10-6-4--A player may hold his/her hand(s) and arm(s) in front of his/her own face or body for protection and to absorb force from an imminent charge by an opponent."

Straight judgment call imo. It depends on what you think the defender is doing with his forearms. If the forearms are just there....passive.....and the offensive player initiates contact on what would have been the defender's torso except for the forearms, I'd have a charge in that case. That's why this one is a htbt call, as you said above. Can't really tell without seeing it.

We're on the same page, from what I read. However, I do think the fact that the defender maintained verticality is large significance to the decision by the official(s), because the Fed does seem to stress this concept quite often.

[Camron Rust]

[quote=Nevadaref]The guard may legally jump. He may legally turn or duck, but he must remain within his vertical plane. If he didn't by sticking out his forearm, then his action was illegal.[/quote]

Neveda, I'm so disapointed.

Using your arms to soften an impending collision doesn't make it a block.

[dave30]

I do think the forearm was only to protect himself and it wasn't his fault that the offensive player's face hit them so I guess I made the right call. Thanks for the confirmation!

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The guard may legally jump. He may legally turn or duck, but he must remain within his vertical plane. If he didn't by sticking out his forearm, then his action was illegal.

With all due deference, does 4-24-3 strike a familiar note?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The guard may legally jump. He may legally turn or duck, but he must remain within his vertical plane. If he didn't by sticking out his forearm, then his action was illegal.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Neveda, I'm so disapointed.

Using your arms to soften an impending collision doesn't make it a block.

Where did I write that this was a block? I'm so disappointed. Think NFHS signal #29.

Originally Posted by justacoach

With all due deference, does 4-24-3 strike a familiar note?

With all due deference, does 4-24-6 strike a familiar note?
...It is not legal to extend the arms fully or partially in a position other than vertical so that the freedom of movement of an opponent is hindered when contact with the arms occurs. The extension of the elbows when the hands are on the hips or when the hands are held near the chest or when the arms are held more or less horizontally are examples of illegal positions used.

I only wrote a short reply earlier. In my opinion, JR explained it in better detail. Depending upon what the defender did with his arm, which the OP only described as "sticks out his forearm," this call could go either way.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Straight judgment call imo. It depends on what you think the defender is doing with his forearms. If the forearms are just there....passive.....and the offensive player initiates contact on what would have been the defender's torso except for the forearms, I'd have a charge in that case. That's why this one is a htbt call, as you said above. Can't really tell without seeing it.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Where did I write that this was a block? I'm so disappointed. Think NFHS signal #29.

Block, push, whatever. Sticking the arms forward to soften a crash is not a foul.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

With all due deference, does 4-24-6 strike a familiar note?
...It is not legal to extend the arms fully or partially in a position other than vertical so that the freedom of movement of an opponent is hindered when contact with the arms occurs. The extension of the elbows when the hands are on the hips or when the hands are held near the chest or when the arms are held more or less horizontally are examples of illegal positions used.

You've missed the whole point. This is talking about the player making themselves wider by extending their arms/elbows outside their frame. Sticking them out in from to shield a collision is NOT what this is talking about. Remember that the opponent was already committed and the extension of the arm is not hindering the opponents freedom of movement....they're already committed and a crash is imminent.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I only wrote a short reply earlier. In my opinion, JR explained it in better detail. Depending upon what the defender did with his arm, which the OP only described as "sticks out his forearm," this call could go either way.

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by dave30

while jumping sticks out his forearm and turns a bit

Did the turning cause him to lose LGP?

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

Did the turning cause him to lose LGP?

Why would it?

Once you have it you may duck or turn to protect yourself it says it right in the rule.