Scratched for no reason??

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

Another reason why I LOVE working high school ball in Indiana!!! We get our own games and decide who we are working with!!!

Yes but I don't have to look for my own games.

Also, we have since made changes so that a coach must send video evidence of misconduct or rule misapplication before he can scratch an official.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

That is not all of Indiana. I know that to be true because I work college ball for someone that assigns a few HS conferences. Also I am sure if a school wanted to they could not ask you back. In my state not all of it has assignors and that is definitely the case here.

Peace

Your referring to Harmon who assigns the NCC and a couple of conferences around Indianapolis. There are a couple of other assignors for select schools but 95% of Indiana doesn't use an assignors. I usually will work half dozen games for these few assignors as my schedule will allow.

As far as a school not asking you back...Well I'm sure that happens however since we get our own games then we usually know where we want to work & with who.

IHSAA has just made the Arbiter available to all schools and trying to get all school to start scheduling through the Arbiter.

The greatest advantage to getting your own games is that you can decide which schools and with what partners. The more you schedule on your own the fewer dates you have open for the few assignors who may/may not put you on a game with partners either that you don't know or that you not comfortable working with.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Yes but I don't have to look for my own games.

Also, we have since made changes so that a coach must send video evidence of misconduct or rule misapplication before he can scratch an official.

That is one advantage..not having to look for games. However once your established your really not looking for games. Most Ad's send you dates or your partners are picking up dates. I just booked a game for the 10'/11' season.

Great idea to have video proof before scratching!!! If they take the time to actually look @ the film.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

IHSAA has just made the Arbiter available to all schools and trying to get all school to start scheduling through the Arbiter.

The greatest advantage to getting your own games is that you can decide which schools and with what partners. The more you schedule on your own the fewer dates you have open for the few assignors who may/may not put you on a game with partners either that you don't know or that you not comfortable working with.

Well I was in a system of where I got my own games and it had many problems as well. If the coach changed they might bring in their own people. The same thing would go with the AD changing as well. You might work at one school one year and the next year you are out. Then you would have games with a school and if you made a tough call or they did not like the job you did, they might not ask you back without having to go through someone to verify if you did the right or wrong thing.

I am not trying to say it is all bad, but it is not all good or any better than an assignor system. It is just different.

Peace

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Well I was in a system of where I got my own games and it had many problems as well. If the coach changed they might bring in their own people. The same thing would go with the AD changing as well. You might work at one school one year and the next year you are out. Then you would have games with a school and if you made a tough call or they did not like the job you did, they might not ask you back without having to go through someone to verify if you did the right or wrong thing.

I am not trying to say it is all bad, but it is not all good or any better than an assignor system. It is just different.

Peace

I'm not saying one system is better then the other just that I prefer this one over the alternative. I'm sure there are PRO's & Con's to both! I really don't know what you mean by, "bring in their own people." As far as AD's/ coaches changing, well that certainly happens.

Has it ever been a problem? I can honestly say, no. Since most of our games are scheduled a few years out then by the time we get to the game the AD/ new coach has seen my crew somewhere. Rarely would the coach and AD change @ the same time so if one doesn't know you then the other does.

Tough calls are going to happen and certainly when you make these calls you stand the chance of the coach not wanting you back. If that happens then so be it. As you said earlier that would be for the best. Fortunately we haven't had to deal with that yet, not to say it won't happen, just not yet.

We have worked @ a couple of schools where we left and said we really wouldn't want to come back. In that case we wouldn't contact that school to schedule.

(IMHO)The number one advantage to scheduling your own games is that you get to work with who you want. I happen to work with a nucleus of about 5 guys. We know how each other works, body language, call selection, philosophy, and most importantly, were comfortable with one another. The more you work with a crew the better you become as a crew.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

I'm not saying one system is better then the other just that I prefer this one over the alternative. I'm sure there are PRO's & Con's to both! I really don't know what you mean by, "bring in their own people." As far as AD's/ coaches changing, well that certainly happens.

If a school assigns their own games, then if there is a change at those positions and they know officials in and around the area, they can hire who they have had a relationship with. That happens all the time where I started. And it would have nothing to do with your ability or any incident. You would not work at that school because the AD would hire people he or she already had a relationship with.

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

Has it ever been a problem? I can honestly say, no. Since most of our games are scheduled a few years out then by the time we get to the game the AD/ new coach has seen my crew somewhere. Rarely would the coach and AD change @ the same time so if one doesn't know you then the other does.

I have known that to be a problem in different parts of Illinois, because some schools would pay the officials to stay home and bring in another set of officials to work the game. So the contract does not mean you will work the game.

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

Tough calls are going to happen and certainly when you make these calls you stand the chance of the coach not wanting you back. If that happens then so be it. As you said earlier that would be for the best. Fortunately we haven't had to deal with that yet, not to say it won't happen, just not yet.

I am not saying you have to be worried about it. But at least when you have an assignor or association, there is a filter before you are banned. The assignor might know the reputation of the coach and not honor the request. Or like Tony said, the have to show some proof other than, "I just do not like this guy."

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

We have worked @ a couple of schools where we left and said we really wouldn't want to come back. In that case we wouldn't contact that school to schedule;

I have been in situations where I did the exact same thing. And I even worked for assignors and requested not to go back to certain schools. The point I am trying to make is that that system you think is so wonderful has its pitfalls. And being in a state that boarders you, there are many people that are uncomfortable with the system. I do not know how long you have been working or what levels you work, but that might be the reason you are happy now about the system. Then again I do not live in a system where I would get banned based on something that was off the court and I was not responsible for the actions either.

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

(IMHO)The number one advantage to scheduling your own games is that you get to work with who you want. I happen to work with a nucleus of about 5 guys. We know how each other works, body language, call selection, philosophy, and most importantly, were comfortable with one another. The more you work with a crew the better you become as a crew.

I agree that working with the same people has its advantages, but it also might not challenge you either. A lot of people that work together do not question the judgments of others and you have to work hard to do that. I work with some guys often right now and I do not mind working with different people. If I am going to go where I want to go, I will not have the choice all the time and that does not bother me one bit.

Peace

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If a school assigns their own games, then if there is a change at those positions and they know officials in and around the area, they can hire who they have had a relationship with. That happens all the time where I started. And it would have nothing to do with your ability or any incident. You would not work at that school because the AD would hire people he or she already had a relationship with.

OK. I understand what you were saying. I suppose that happens, although I have never heard of it happening. However if I have a contract and for some reason they don't want to honor it thats OK, they still have to pay me the game fee. The IHSAA demands this! I will say that has never happened to me or anybody that I work with!

I am not saying you have to be worried about it. But at least when you have an assignor or association, there is a filter before you are banned. The assignor might know the reputation of the coach and not honor the request. Or like Tony said, the have to show some proof other than, "I just do not like this guy."

Agreed! I work @ the collegiate level where if a coach has a problem with something you have done in the game then my supervisors would require the game film to substantiate the complaint. So certainly I can see the advantage to this part of it assuming that the high school assignor would actually take the time to view the film. I say that because that hasn't been the case with one of the few assignors in Indiana!!!

The point I am trying to make is that that system you think is so wonderful has its pitfalls. And being in a state that boarders you, there are many people that are uncomfortable with the system.

I hope you understand that I'm not saying your wrong!!! I want to be clear!!! I'm not saying our system is so WONDERFUL!! Just I prefer this system for HIGH SCHOOL! I happen to live in a area where both are used, with assigning being the minority! In one of the assigning systems there really isn't any thought given to how far away the school might be and if you happen to turn the game back then your likely to lose all of your games for that one particular assignor!

His thought process is that if he assigns you a game then you better take it or else. I know of officials who have driven 3 hrs to work a $60.00 high school game for fear of losing the rest of their schedule. They are in a catch 22. They don't have any games of their own, the assignor knows it, leverages that to his/her advantage and puts the official in a very precarious situation!

Not to mention if you happen to put all of your eggs in that one assignors basket where you depend on him/her for all of your games and that assignors loses the job, quits, & the replacement (if there is one) doesn't know/use you then they are in the very situation you said they could get in with changes @ the AD/Coach level, however unlikely that may be. That official then could end up with very few games if he/she loses the assignors games. Which would jeopardize the tournament. In Indiana unless you have worked a certain number of Varsity contests you can't work the post season tournament.

I do not know how long you have been working or what levels you work, but that might be the reason you are happy now about the system.

Don't get me wrong I can tell you plenty of things that I don't like about it, for example, the coaches have all of the power in who works/doesn't work the postseason tournament. Unlike @ the lower collegiate level where the final decision is on the supervisor or @ the DI level the NCAA committee.

I agree that working with the same people has its advantages, but it also might not challenge you either. A lot of people that work together do not question the judgments of others and you have to work hard to do that. I work with some guys often right now and I do not mind working with different people. If I am going to go where I want to go, I will not have the choice all the time and that does not bother me one bit.
Peace

Your right working with the same partners has its advantages, more then not!! My partners and I are overly critical of one another. We spend a lot of time breaking down film talking plays, each others plays, what we need to do to get better!! We wouldn't have it any other way.As far as challenging myself, well I get plenty of different partners @ the collegiate level.

Just @ the high school level your more likely to get inexperienced officials on a game if you don't bring your own partners. Especially if its a new AD who doesn't know officials or how they work and schedules with just about anybody who calls him/her for a game. That doesn't mean we don't take newer or less experienced officials with us to do games, it just has to be on the right game, right time & @ the right time in relation to where their officiating ability is.

We only schedule games where we can bring our partners or if there happen to be officials on the game that we know who can manage/handle that game. If there happens to be officials on the game that we don't know or are familiar with then we just pass on the game.

@ the collegiate level its the opposite! Your less likely to have games with partners who really shouldn't be there. Supervisors are hiring officials that they have seen work somewhere.

Like I said before I'm sure both systems have pro's/con's, just @ the high school level I prefer this system with all of it's flaws.

[JRutledge]

Gimlet25id,

I never said this was about right and wrong. I just stated that when schools assign their games, they have powers. There are problems with an assignor on many levels too. I just wanted to state it is not all peaches and cream and the flaws can be looked at by some as worse. I have worked in both systems and I just learned to adapt to either one. I still work in both systems.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Yeah me!

"Me? Whee!"........Muhammad Ali.

[chartrusepengui]

I had commissionor call me to tell me a certain school wanted me scratched because we made too many calls late in a close game and "should have let the kids play to decide game outcome". He asked how I would feel if he switched us with another crew working nearby.

I had no real problem with it - the AD is a jerk IMO. Ironic thing is - we were assigned that schools opening tournament game by the state. Didn't say a word to the AD - but it was priceless seeing his face when we walked in!

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

I had commissionor call me to tell me a certain school wanted me scratched because we made too many calls late in a close game and "should have let the kids play to decide game outcome". He asked how I would feel if he switched us with another crew working nearby.

I had no real problem with it - the AD is a jerk IMO. Ironic thing is - we were assigned that schools opening tournament game by the state. Didn't say a word to the AD - but it was priceless seeing his face when we walked in!

Love it.

If I were in charge, that is exactly what I would do with any school that scratched an official. You could count on that official being assigned to that school's first postseason contest.

[Jesse James]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

We only schedule games where we can bring our partners or if there happen to be officials on the game that we know who can manage/handle that game. If there happens to be officials on the game that we don't know or are familiar with then we just pass on the game.

So when you get a post-season assignment, and the IHSAA teams you with guys you don't know, you pass?

[Beemer]

Originally Posted by atcref

AD calls my commissioner, says scratch that guy from my game, don't know his name but he was the tall curly headed one. I heard him say that we don't play anybody.

Nobody on the court said a word to this coach before, during, or after the game.
The contest was relatively smooth.

Do I care?

I'm suprised everyone else could figure out what happened. Whats going on here???

[jcarter]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

That is not all of Indiana. I know that to be true because I work college ball for someone that assigns a few HS conferences. Also I am sure if a school wanted to they could not ask you back. In my state not all of it has assignors and that is definitely the case here.

Peace

I dont know about Southern Indiana but Northern Indiana is a hodge podge scheduling system. You have associations with a scheduling chair person who does scheduling for certain schools. Then some of the schools still have the athletic director doing the scheduling. And other schools use multiple associations to do there scheduling. Then some schools use all three systems.

Although I pretty much stay with one association if you want a lot of games you need to be in multiple associations and do some networking.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Jesse James

So when you get a post-season assignment, and the IHSAA teams you with guys you don't know, you pass?

What do you think? Hopefully, but not always, if they are in the tournament then they should be able to work it. Besides since the IHSAA is going to give you your assignments geographically there's a strong chance your going to know the rest of your crew.

It still doesn't guarantee that you will be paired up with someone you know or feel comfortable with. If its just a couple of games then no big deal, hopefully! We still are working the other 30 to 40 games with our regular partners. If were lucky then we will see them on our tourney assignment.