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Old Fri Jan 18, 2008, 09:56am
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Q from 1st Year: Shooting Foul on blocked shot

Player A1 goes up for shot. Player B1 touches ball as it leaves hand. Player B1 then contacts player A1's arm/torso.

Fans/coaches/players all see the blocked shot very clearly. I see the contact after the blocked shot. I call foul on B1, awarding two FTs to A1.

When does A1's try end again?
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Old Fri Jan 18, 2008, 10:00am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ca_rumperee
Player A1 goes up for shot. Player B1 touches ball as it leaves hand. Player B1 then contacts player A1's arm/torso.

Fans/coaches/players all see the blocked shot very clearly. I see the contact after the blocked shot. I call foul on B1, awarding two FTs to A1.

When does A1's try end again?
In this case the try ends when it clearly will not be successful. That is with the block. However the act of shooting includes the airborne shooter. That player is considered in the act of shooting until one foot returns to the floor.

You should likely consider that the contact with the arm/torso should be substantial after the ball is blocked cleanly up top in order for you to have a foul. Many camp instructors where teaching 80% ball 20% player should be let go a few years ago. Something to think about.
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Old Fri Jan 18, 2008, 10:08am
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I agree with Nevada, though I'm not sure of the percentages. Participants around here expect a no-call when a shot is blocked, unless there is significant contact. I'm not sure how to quantify 'significant'.
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Old Fri Jan 18, 2008, 10:18am
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This is good..

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron
I agree with Nevada, though I'm not sure of the percentages. Participants around here expect a no-call when a shot is blocked, unless there is significant contact. I'm not sure how to quantify 'significant'.
A couple of times I've had guys "swinging" or "chopping" an arm on these blocks, with a big motion. Makes that foul call easier.
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Old Fri Jan 18, 2008, 10:21am
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Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
In this case the try ends when it clearly will not be successful. That is with the block. However the act of shooting includes the airborne shooter. That player is considered in the act of shooting until one foot returns to the floor.

You should likely consider that the contact with the arm/torso should be substantial after the ball is blocked cleanly up top in order for you to have a foul. Many camp instructors where teaching 80% ball 20% player should be let go a few years ago. Something to think about.
This helps a lot. Funny that I never got any insight on this during my training over the summer. It has just been a lingering question that I've been feeling my way through.
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Old Fri Jan 18, 2008, 10:31am
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Let them Play

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
In this case the try ends when it clearly will not be successful. That is with the block. However the act of shooting includes the airborne shooter. That player is considered in the act of shooting until one foot returns to the floor.

You should likely consider that the contact with the arm/torso should be substantial after the ball is blocked cleanly up top in order for you to have a foul. Many camp instructors where teaching 80% ball 20% player should be let go a few years ago. Something to think about.

Rumpref : This is the first year,4th year reffing, that I have applied the 80/20 deal Nevada wrote about. The amount of grief that I get by no calling this-unless it's substantial-has been practically zero. The amount of complaining/grief I get for doing it the old way is in itself substantional.

How I learned to apply this new theory is I needed to swallow my whistle a little on blocked shots and pay attention to whats going on when I swallow my whistle. The feedback I got was amazing.

Now to address those who might say i should or shouldn't make calls based on the complaining/grief factor I agree. Just saying in this one area the results are noticeable...

Also Rumpref they just had a thread in the last couple of weeks on this-couldn't find it but it's relatively recent.
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Old Fri Jan 18, 2008, 10:44am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron
I agree with Nevada, though I'm not sure of the percentages. Participants around here expect a no-call when a shot is blocked, unless there is significant contact. I'm not sure how to quantify 'significant'.
Significant is the shooter being smacked in the face or knocked on his azz.

JMO.
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Old Fri Jan 18, 2008, 11:28am
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It's important to watch what else the blocker is doing as well though, isn't it? I have seen many times where the defender uses a hand on the shooter to push himself up thus gaining an advantage or going in to the shooter hard with the body.

Everyone in the gym except us is looking at the ball so when a foul is called on this action it draws a lot of grief because all they see is the blocked shot.
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Old Fri Jan 18, 2008, 11:45am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
In this case the try ends when it clearly will not be successful. That is with the block. However the act of shooting includes the airborne shooter. That player is considered in the act of shooting until one foot returns to the floor.
So, what do you do in this situation. A1 goes up for a jump shot, B1 crashes into him, but just after A1 returns to the floor. I still have a shooting foul. Should this be a common foul?

Edit: Nevermind, on the situation I presented, I'm assuming there is no block, thus the try hasn't ended. So, no block - it's a shooting foul. Block followed by body (not simaltaneously) - common foul.

Last edited by ILRef80; Fri Jan 18, 2008 at 11:47am.
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Old Fri Jan 18, 2008, 11:52am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ILRef80
Edit: Nevermind, on the situation I presented, I'm assuming there is no block, thus the try hasn't ended. So, no block - it's a shooting foul. Block followed by body (not simaltaneously) - common foul.
Nope, wrong understanding of the applicable rules. The shot ended when the shot was blocked. The airborne shooter however is still a "shooter" until he lands. Block followed by illegal contact on an airborne shooter is a shooting foul.
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Old Fri Jan 18, 2008, 11:54am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ILRef80
So, what do you do in this situation. A1 goes up for a jump shot, B1 crashes into him, but just after A1 returns to the floor. I still have a shooting foul. Should this be a common foul?

Edit: Nevermind, on the situation I presented, I'm assuming there is no block, thus the try hasn't ended. So, no block - it's a shooting foul. Block followed by body (not simaltaneously) - common foul.
Think again.... the act of shooting ends when the shooter returns to the floor. In your description, the foul by B1 occurs after A1 returns to the floor. This is a common foul on B1, team A gets the ball for throw in at the closest spot unless they're in the bonus, in which case A1 will be shooting free throws.
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Old Fri Jan 18, 2008, 11:56am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ILRef80
So, what do you do in this situation. A1 goes up for a jump shot, B1 crashes into him, but just after A1 returns to the floor. I still have a shooting foul. Should this be a common foul?

Edit: Nevermind, on the situation I presented, I'm assuming there is no block, thus the try hasn't ended. So, no block - it's a shooting foul. Block followed by body (not simaltaneously) - common foul.
In addition to JR's response above, in the event there is no blocked shot, a foul on a shooter who has returned to the floor - even if the try is still on its way to the hoop - is not a shooting foul.

The second that player returns a toe to the court, he's no longer an airborne shooter.
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Old Fri Jan 18, 2008, 11:59am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Significant is the shooter being smacked in the face or knocked on his azz.

JMO.
Had a situation last week where an airborne shooter had his (lay-up) shot blocked (out of bounds) hard and clean...the problem was that the blocker got the shooter's arm after the clean block.

I had a no call...the player came up and showed me the red mark on his arm as I was administering the throw-in.

I told him to turn around and walk away...quick. He did, and later apologized for "showing me up". I told him, "that's cool...and if you really got hit like that, I might have missed it."

Watta ya think?
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Old Fri Jan 18, 2008, 12:05pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RookieDude

Watta ya think?
Who knows? Without seeing it, it sounds like it might be a clean block followed by incidental contact.
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Old Fri Jan 18, 2008, 12:14pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdw3018
In addition to JR's response above, in the event there is no blocked shot, a foul on a shooter who has returned to the floor - even if the try is still on its way to the hoop - is not a shooting foul.

The second that player returns a toe to the court, he's no longer an airborne shooter.
Interesting, thanks for the responses. I've been calling that wrong. Granted, it doesn't happen often, but the few times I have had an offensive player fouled shortly (i.e. within a second of returning to the floor) after returning to the floor, I've called it a shooting foul.

That's what I come here
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