Did I mess this one up?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

So this is a violation according to NFHS? WOW! That is unbelieveable! Kid never steps out of bounds to attempt the throw-in (he might just have a brain fart since he is young) and it's a violation? That is horrible!!! If I have that happen in any of my high school games I will take full responsibility for the play. They can fine me, sue me, take my game check, whatever. That is not what is right for the game. Common sense should prevail here.

I'm sorry that I missed that according to rule and don't want young guys on here not knowing the rules, but there are some times that you need to step up and gain a Crew Chief mentality and ask yourself, "Is it right for the game", because the integrity of the game is what you are trying to protect. Are you protecting it by a kid making a silly mistake by not stepping out of bounds for a throw-in when he hasn't even legally stepped out of bounds to be awarded the chance to make a throw-in? I'm sorry but this makes no sense to me.

The only thing worse than not knowing a rule is knowing it and refusing to enforce it anyway.

[ncump7]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

This is not a violation. Hit the whistle, kill the play, and give the ball back to Team B. The ball was never inbounded, the only thing you could do at all is give them a delay of game warning, but that's not even a good idea. The only way it would be a violation would be if it was a 5 second violation, which he has to step behind the line with ball in hand to do which he did not, or a boundary line infraction in which he steps behind the line with ball in hand and then steps over, I didn't say on the line, but over the line while ball is still in hand.

Man I remember the days when I used to get so screwed up with things like these. It's smart of you to ask about these small minute details JS 20, cause as you move up in every level, the small minute details make a big difference. For Example, my boss is going to chew my butt when he sees my crews tape and sees that we had a violation happen in the backcourt and we gave the team the ball in the frontcourt. That is a big difference in our game and my boss will call me out on it. See what I mean. Minute, but a difference maker.

If no one took the ball out of bounds after a made basket in one of your games, you would not call it the entire game. You would just let them take the ball and begin play. Would they have to pass it to a teammate, or can they just begin a dribble? I fail to see where this is good for the game.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bgtg19

(1) JR, you were out of line, in my opinion, to go needlessly personal. Just as you would like him to learn from his mistakes, I'm pointing this out so that you will have the opportunity to learn from your mistake. You're welcome.

In my opinion, you should mind your own damn business. It's not your business to tell anyone on this forum how or what to post. That's the moderator's job. You're way out of line. If you can't learn from your mistake, then as an alternative feel free to just piss off.

Is that clear enough for you?

You're welcome also.

[atcref]

It is a violation, be careful on making up your own rules. Coaches don't need any inconsistency and it is not our job to confuse players by unilaterally chaning rules that we don't like

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I actually thought that you were finally starting to get it, Ben. Unfortunately, I was wrong. As usual, you still won't bother learning basic rules. You refuse to try and understand why those basic rules were implemented too. It's not a matter of young guys not knowing the rules; it's a matter of a so-called official not knowing the rules, and then after being informed of the correct rule, arguing that it shouldn't be called that way and he's not going to. That's completely wrong for any official, at any age. Wrong and stoopid..

When did it become up to you to decide what rules you feel like enforcing? A definitive case play was issued. You didn't know that the case play existed. That's very telling. Hardly new but still telling. And it's even more telling when you state that you're going to ignore that definitive case play. Throwing in phrases like "crew chief mentality" and "protecting the integrity of the game" is absolutely ridiculous when you don't know the basics of officiating. Just because you heard those terms at some camp and you can now mindlessly regurgitate them here doesn't mean that you actually understand what those terms mean. You can't protect the integrity of the game by deliberately ignoring the rules of the game. It's very obvious that you don't have a clue what they're trying to teach you.

Maybe one day, some of this might make some sense to you. I've got my doubts though. Hopefully, other young officials reading this will learn something, even though it looks like you never will.

Please provide a rule book citing please. I don't want a case play. I want someone to provide where it says, in the rule book, that a player who is not yet stepped out of bounds is illegal. I believe it is one thing when he makes an attempt to step out of bounds and doesn't get all the way out and i believe it is different when he just grabs the ball and goes. They have to step out of bounds to be given or awarded the right for a legal or legit throw-in. I don't deem the play we're talking about an illegal throw-in or even a throw-in violation because he was not at the proper spot to make a, by definition, THROW-IN.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Please provide a rule book citing please.

Why not a case book play? They carry the same weight as the rule book in NFHS, as do the interps and memos that are sent out mid-season. It's ridiculous for you to be so snitty about this. You're wrong, pure and simple. Just Get Over Yourself.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

1)Please provide a rule book citing please. I don't want a case play.

2) I don't deem the play we're talking about an illegal throw-in or even a throw-in violation because he was not at the proper spot to make a, by definition, THROW-IN.

1) That statement sums up your development as an official quite nicely.

2) Have you read any of the other responses in this thread? It's you against the world. Don't you think that might just be a little hint that there's a chance, no matter how faint that chance is, that you possibly could be wrong?

Ben, go on your merry little way. Call what you wanna call. If you're going to deny the existence of a plainly written case play, there's no hope for you anyway.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Please provide a rule book citing please. I don't want a case play. I want someone to provide where it says, in the rule book, that a player who is not yet stepped out of bounds is illegal. I believe it is one thing when he makes an attempt to step out of bounds and doesn't get all the way out and i believe it is different when he just grabs the ball and goes. They have to step out of bounds to be given or awarded the right for a legal or legit throw-in. I don't deem the play we're talking about an illegal throw-in or even a throw-in violation because he was not at the proper spot to make a, by definition, THROW-IN.

9-2-2 The ball shall be passed directly into the court FROM OUT OF BOUNDS... (my emphasis). That's what the rule says. If it isn't passed from oob, it's against the rules. Period.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Please provide a rule book citing please. I don't want a case play. I want someone to provide where it says, in the rule book, that a player who is not yet stepped out of bounds is illegal. I believe it is one thing when he makes an attempt to step out of bounds and doesn't get all the way out and i believe it is different when he just grabs the ball and goes. They have to step out of bounds to be given or awarded the right for a legal or legit throw-in. I don't deem the play we're talking about an illegal throw-in or even a throw-in violation because he was not at the proper spot to make a, by definition, THROW-IN.

"Do you feel lucky punk? You are asking yourself: did he fire five shots or did he fire six? To tell you the truth, in all of the excitement I don't know myself. So, do you feel lucky punk?"


Well I am not sure if that is an accurate verbatim quote of Dirty Harry, BUT, and I will keep this in the realm of the NFHS:

From the NFHS Rules Book:

R9-S2: Throw-in Provisions

NFHS R9-S2-A2: The ball shall be passed by the thrower directly into the court from out-of-bounds so it touches or is touched by another player (inbounds or out of bounds) on the court before going out of bounds untouched.


From the NFHS Casebook:

Play 9.2.2 SITUATION C: A1 scores a basket. After the ball goes through the net, B1 grabs it and makes a move toward the end line as though preparing to make a throw-in. However, B1 never legally steps out of bounds, both feet remain inbounds. B1 immediately passes the ball up the court to a fast-breaking teammate, who scores a basket. RULING: Cancel Team B's goal, throw-in violation on B1. The ball was at B1's disposal after the made basket to make a throw-in. B1 must be out of bounds to make a legal throw-in. (R7-S4-A3; R7-S5-A7)


What part of these the Rule and the Casebook Play don't you understand. They go hand-in-hand. The Casebook Play is to show the application of the rule. A Casebook Play has the force of the Rule. It is analogous to the U.S. Supreme Court issues a ruling. That ruling has the force of law. Get over it and apply the Casebook Play.

MTD, Sr.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

From the NFHS Rules Book:

R9-S2: Throw-in Provisions

NFHS R9-S2-A2: The ball shall be passed by the thrower directly into the court from out-of-bounds so it touches or is touched by another player (inbounds or out of bounds) on the court before going out of bounds untouched.

Well, I"m glad I decided to go ahead and look up the rule, because I beat you to the post!!! In my very limited life this winter, it's nice to know I haven't totally lost the spring in my step...

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Well, I"m glad I decided to go ahead and look up the rule, because I beat you to the post!!! In my very limited life this winter, it's nice to know I haven't totally lost the spring in my step...

Juulie:

ROFLMAO!! That is why I had Mark, Jr. become an OhioHSAA basketball official. I need him to carry me on the court.

I am just glad we were able to double team him.

MTD, Sr.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Juulie:

ROFLMAO!! That is why I had Mark, Jr. become an OhioHSAA basketball official. I need him to carry me on the court.

I am just glad we were able to double team him.

MTD, Sr.

Well, gee, Mark, it wasn't that funny. But I guess if you're that easy to entertain, I'm glad I can be of some use.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Well, gee, Mark, it wasn't that funny. But I guess if you're that easy to entertain, I'm glad I can be of some use.

I am getting easy to entertain because according to my two sons (ages 14 and 17) I am getting senile in my old age.

MTD, Sr.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

"Do you feel lucky punk? You are asking yourself: did he fire five shots or did he fire six? To tell you the truth, in all of the excitement I don't know myself. So, do you feel lucky punk?"


Well I am not sure if that is an accurate verbatim quote of Dirty Harry, BUT, and I will keep this in the realm of the NFHS:

From the NFHS Rules Book:

R9-S2: Throw-in Provisions

NFHS R9-S2-A2: The ball shall be passed by the thrower directly into the court from out-of-bounds so it touches or is touched by another player (inbounds or out of bounds) on the court before going out of bounds untouched.


From the NFHS Casebook:

Play 9.2.2 SITUATION C: A1 scores a basket. After the ball goes through the net, B1 grabs it and makes a move toward the end line as though preparing to make a throw-in. However, B1 never legally steps out of bounds, both feet remain inbounds. B1 immediately passes the ball up the court to a fast-breaking teammate, who scores a basket. RULING: Cancel Team B's goal, throw-in violation on B1. The ball was at B1's disposal after the made basket to make a throw-in. B1 must be out of bounds to make a legal throw-in. (R7-S4-A3; R7-S5-A7)


What part of these the Rule and the Casebook Play don't you understand. They go hand-in-hand. The Casebook Play is to show the application of the rule. A Casebook Play has the force of the Rule. It is analogous to the U.S. Supreme Court issues a ruling. That ruling has the force of law. Get over it and apply the Casebook Play.

MTD, Sr.

So if he has yet to step or attempted to step out of bounds for the use of a throw-in he has not violated any provision.

Also Rule 4 section 42 Art. 2 states:

A throw-in is a method of putting the ball in play FROM OUT OF BOUNDS. So it seems to me that since this player does not touch any part of the out of bounds area that he has not violated any throw-in provisions. I'm not trying to make anything up. To me, the rule book is like the bible, everybody is going to read the same words and interpret it in the way they see best fits. My interp of this play according to rules in which I have cited here, this is not a violation. If you interpret it differently then so be it. I don't believe the case book play to match the rules that are set therein.

I also went back and read the rule page citings that are given for this case play and it pertains to when you are awarded the ball OOB and the other pertains to running the endline after a made basket none of which make light of a player not stepping OOB and throwing the ball to a teammate.

You know, it is what it is, I don't believe I'm making anything up here. the casebook might not support me, but the rulebook does (consistency, huh). Nowhere does it state that a player has violated on this type of play. He must be out of bounds to establish, by definition, a throw-in, which he does not do here, therefore no provisions have been met nor have they been violated.

Jurassic it never ceases to fail or amaze me for that matter, that you go on the attack on a personal level. That shows your true colors I believe. If you're pissed with me, PM me and tell me privately. If you don't like what I have to say, fine. That is like a coach telling me I made a horrible call, I'll take a look at it and see what I had. I could be wrong but not as often as I am right. I guess its good that you are well respected around here in cyberspace because if it was any other person that said what he did to bgtg19 this thread would be locked up in a heartbeat. That was a total classless move to respond to him like that. You can keep attacking me forever as long as it is bball or officiating related, since you know everything about me, but don't go after a guy because you are pissed at me and then you are pissed at him for having my back against you. And you know what maybe you're right, maybe I haven't gotten this whole officiating thing yet, but I will one day. But I will always be able to go back and thank you for calling me stupid, which helps me out so much in my development as an official. Thanks.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

So if he has yet to step or attempted to step out of bounds for the use of a throw-in he has not violated any provision.

Also Rule 4 section 42 Art. 2 states:

A throw-in is a method of putting the ball in play FROM OUT OF BOUNDS. So it seems to me that since this player does not touch any part of the out of bounds area that he has not violated any throw-in provisions. I'm not trying to make anything up. To me, the rule book is like the bible, everybody is going to read the same words and interpret it in the way they see best fits. My interp of this play according to rules in which I have cited here, this is not a violation. If you interpret it differently then so be it. I don't believe the case book play to match the rules that are set therein.

I also went back and read the rule page citings that are given for this case play and it pertains to when you are awarded the ball OOB and the other pertains to running the endline after a made basket none of which make light of a player not stepping OOB and throwing the ball to a teammate.

You know, it is what it is, I don't believe I'm making anything up here. the casebook might not support me, but the rulebook does (consistency, huh). Nowhere does it state that a player has violated on this type of play. He must be out of bounds to establish, by definition, a throw-in, which he does not do here, therefore no provisions have been met nor have they been violated.

Jurassic it never ceases to fail or amaze me for that matter, that you go on the attack on a personal level. That shows your true colors I believe. If you're pissed with me, PM me and tell me privately. If you don't like what I have to say, fine. That is like a coach telling me I made a horrible call, I'll take a look at it and see what I had. I could be wrong but not as often as I am right. I guess its good that you are well respected around here in cyberspace because if it was any other person that said what he did to bgtg19 this thread would be locked up in a heartbeat. That was a total classless move to respond to him like that. You can keep attacking me forever as long as it is bball or officiating related, since you know everything about me, but don't go after a guy because you are pissed at me and then you are pissed at him for having my back against you. And you know what maybe you're right, maybe I haven't gotten this whole officiating thing yet, but I will one day. But I will always be able to go back and thank you for calling me stupid, which helps me out so much in my development as an official. Thanks.

BTaylor:

I do not know where you officiate. I do not know how long you have been officiating. BUT, it is obvious you do not have a very good grasp of the rules. The rules are quite clear, for a team to put the ball back into play, it must make it inbounds throw from out-of-bounds. If they do NOT, they have committed a throw-in violation. One of my personal friends is Peter Webb, a two time member of the NFHS Rule Committee and the foremost NFHS Rules person in the country (Mary Struckhoff cannot hold a candle to Peter when it comes to rules and mechanics knowledge) and the current State Rules Interpreter for the Maine Principals Association (the StateHSAA for the state of Maine). I know other past and present menbers of the NFHS Rules Committee and I can assure that that everyone will agree with me concerning your lack of understanding of the rules. If you find the concept that I am trying to teach you too difficult to grasp, then maybe you should find a different advocation, lest you become labled another Old School. Oh my gosh, I have said he who must not me named. LOL

The Rules Book, is not like the Bible. It is the law and there is only one interpretation per a specific rule, not a different interpretation by each official as he reads it. Get with the program.

MTD, Sr.


P.S. If you think JR is in attack mode you haven't seen me when I get my knickers in a bunch when a young official who thinks he knows everything there is to know won't listen to logic.