What a Mess!

[umpire99]

Worked an earlier game last night and stuck around for the second game. Here is what I saw:

FED rules. R1 and R2 with two one out. Deep fly ball over F8's head. F8 chases down the ball and makes a diving catch. U2 is standing right in front of second base (didn't go out on the play). After the catch is made, U2 makes absolutely no signal. Now we have a runner on every base as both runners moved up and the batter is standing on first. While everybody was confused, the centerfielder got the ball in and the shortstop tagged second base. While the umpires were talking it over, the defense realized that R2 had tagged up and R1 had not. The shortstop then took the ball (while dead) and tagged first. The umpires came out and said that U1 had seen the obvious catch and that the runner on first was out for not tagging up. What was done right? What was done wrong?

More on the umpires comments later.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by umpire99

Worked an earlier game last night and stuck around for the second game. Here is what I saw:

FED rules. R1 and R2 with two one out. Deep fly ball over F8's head. F8 chases down the ball and makes a diving catch. U2 is standing right in front of second base (didn't go out on the play). After the catch is made, U2 makes absolutely no signal. Now we have a runner on every base as both runners moved up and the batter is standing on first. While everybody was confused, the centerfielder got the ball in and the shortstop tagged second base. While the umpires were talking it over, the defense realized that R2 had tagged up and R1 had not. The shortstop then took the ball (while dead) and tagged first. The umpires came out and said that U1 had seen the obvious catch and that the runner on first was out for not tagging up. What was done right? What was done wrong?

More on the umpires comments later.

This is a clear case of an umpire making a mistake that directly affected the game. BR out, put R1 and R2 back on their bases.

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by umpire99

Worked an earlier game last night and stuck around for the second game. Here is what I saw:

FED rules. R1 and R2 with two one out. Deep fly ball over F8's head. F8 chases down the ball and makes a diving catch. U2 is standing right in front of second base (didn't go out on the play).

Nor should he have. You never 'go out' when in B or C.

[PFISTO]

This is clearly U2's call as he was in the correct postion to see any tags which he has to call. The problem was there was no call. With a play like this you have to sell your call right or wroung. This play reflects the problems with the 2 man system.

[Blue37]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

Nor should he have. You never 'go out' when in B or C.

No matter the number of umpires? What about three man?

[umpire99]

I agree that he should not have gone out, but he should have at least made a signal. U2 later said, "If this was a big game, I would have gone out on that ball."

This was a big game to all the participants with the exception of U2.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by Blue37

No matter the number of umpires? What about three man?

The OP says nothing about a U3, so we assume it was two-man. Don's point is valid.

[tibear]

Originally Posted by LMan

The OP says nothing about a U3, so we assume it was two-man. Don's point is valid.

OP quotes U1 & U2. So along with the PU there was obviously a 3 man crew.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by tibear

OP quotes U1 & U2. So along with the PU there was obviously a 3 man crew.

Not necessarily. FED calls the two umpires U1 (PU or UIC) and U2 (BU).

Even in FED 3-man, you don't go out from the middle. You can go out on trouble in NCAA 3-man.

[PeteBooth]

What was done right? What was done wrong?

It appears that nothing was done right. let's take them one at a time

Deep fly ball over F8's head. F8 chases down the ball and makes a diving catch. U2 is standing right in front of second base (didn't go out on the play). After the catch is made, U2 makes absolutely no signal.

In a 2 / 3 person system umpires do not go out when there are runners on base. I will assume 2 person crew.

U2 has the catch / no catch and the tag up at second. The PU has the call at 3rd should there be a play there. U2 has to call "something" right or wrong. He didn't so that is mistake number 1.

The shortstop then took the ball (while dead) and tagged first. The umpires came out and said that U1 had seen the obvious catch and that the runner on first was out for not tagging up.

Another blunder. In FED you cannot place either team at a disadvantage because of umpire error. Also, a runner cannot be played upon during a dead ball situation. Runners during a dead ball situation may correct their base-running errors upon acceptance of an award, but they are not in jeopardy of being put out. You can have a dead ball appeal in FED but that doesn't seem to be the case in your thread.

Here is where I would place the runners.

R2 tagged up properly so I would leave him at third base as the umpire error had no effect on him. The BR is obviously out but I would put R1 back at first because he was effected by umpire error. Therefore, we have runners at the corners and 2 outs let's play.

Pete Booth

[jkumpire]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

What was done right? What was done wrong?

Here is where I would place the runners.

R2 tagged up properly so I would leave him at third base as the umpire error had no effect on him. The BR is obviously out but I would put R1 back at first because he was effected by umpire error. Therefore, we have runners at the corners and 2 outs let's play.

Pete Booth

Pete, I agree with everything but two minor thoughts:

1. Do we know the BR is out? that is why BU froze, he still doesn't know if he made the catch or not. Unless the PU knows he caught it, or the BU owns up to it later, could we not place the BR too? If I'm the PU that is Q1: "Do You know he caught it?" Unless I saw it, caught, the PU has to tell me if it was caught. Now if it is stiplualted at the top of the play the BU or PU knew the ball is caught, then I agree with you.

2. If F8 is making a diving catch with his back to the inf, I would look and see where R1, just in case R1 decided to tag on this play. I admit that any player worth his salt won't tag on this play, he would go at least half way to 2B. But, the 1B coach might have made him tag up, or he would go and do it on his own. If he's tagging, then I put R1 on 2B.

[LMan]

1. The umpires came out and said that U1 had seen the obvious catch

in the OP it appears that there was a catch, and it was obvious.

[mandotheman]

[QUOTE=umpire99]Worked an earlier game last night and stuck around for the second game. Here is what I saw:

FED rules. R1 and R2 with two one out. Deep fly ball over F8's head. F8 chases down the ball and makes a diving catch. U2 is standing right in front of second base (didn't go out on the play). After the catch is made, U2 makes absolutely no signal. Now we have a runner on every base as both runners moved up and the batter is standing on first. While everybody was confused, the centerfielder got the ball in and the shortstop tagged second base. While the umpires were talking it over, the defense realized that R2 had tagged up and R1 had not. The shortstop then took the ball (while dead) and tagged first. The umpires came out and said that U1 had seen the obvious catch and that the runner on first was out for not tagging up. What was done right? What was done wrong?

More on the umpires comments later.[/QUOT

I had a similar play.....In this play, while no umpire made a call, the runners took off on their own. R2 tagged up and R1 did not. R2 is safe on third while R1 is out after proper appeal. Remember after the ball is dead, no player may return to his last base. The ball must be put in play and the defense must appeal the no tag at 1st. R1 is out , R2 remains at third. We as umpires have to make a call no matter what the situation, or else you are going to have a sheet house......

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by mandotheman

Remember after the ball is dead, no player may return to his last base.

This is not entirely accuate.

[PeteBooth]

1. Do we know the BR is out? that is why BU froze, he still doesn't know if he made the catch or not. Unless the PU knows he caught it, or the BU owns up to it later, could we not place the BR too?

Do not mean to be sarcastic, but something has to be called right or wrong.
You can't stand there all "year" without making some sort of call be it right or wrong.

Bottom line in this thread is: Umpire error and according to FED rules you cannot place either team at a disadvantage so you rule accordingly.

Pete Booth