What a mess...

[ElPanadero]

I'm sitting in the stands the other night for this one.

Home team is at bat and down by one run, bottom of the inning, time has expired. There are 2 outs and runner on 1st. B1 has 2 strikes on him. F1 pitches for 3rd strike, F2 drops the ball. Everyone thinks that because there is a runner on 1B, F2 doesn't have to throw to 1B (it's a Bronco game, Pony league). Game is over.

Not quite. Umpire signals 3rd strike but does not signal out. Half the defense is running off the field thinking the game is over. The 3rd base coach runs to the middle of the field and is screaming for B1 to run to 1st base. B1 finally wakes up and runs to 1B while R1 has moved over to 2B.

Visiting manager protests that catcher did eventually tag B1 after the dropped 3rd strike, loses that argument and then complains that the catcher never had to throw to 1B because it was occupied at the time. Obviously didn't know the rules.

My question is...could there have been a protest on the 3rd base coach running into the middle of the field (between the pitching mound and the plate)? What would have been the penalty?

The game did continue, the very next batter struck out.

[EMBUAump]

The umpire couldn't have called anyone out.

As long as the coach didn't physically assist a runner, or run to draw a throw.

[SanDiegoSteve]

The umpire couldn't call anyone out, but he could have, and perhaps should have ejected the coach as per 4.05(b) PENALTY.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

The umpire couldn't call anyone out, but he could have, and perhaps should have ejected the coach as per 4.05(b) PENALTY.

Call him out based on what?


As for being out of the box, 4.05(b) says: The coach shall not be considered out of the box unless the opposing manager complains, and then, the umpire shall strictly enforce the rule and require all coaches (on both teams) to remain in the coach's box at all times.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Call him out based on what?


As for being out of the box, 4.05(b) says: The coach shall not be considered out of the box unless the opposing manager complains, and then, the umpire shall strictly enforce the rule and require all coaches (on both teams) to remain in the coach's box at all times.

Rich:

Steve said that there's no way to call him out. What he said was he should have been ejected, which he probably should have for running into the middle of the field.

Tim.

[LMan]

I don't get the "mess" part of the sitch...sounds like a typical Pony game to me

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

Rich:

Steve said that there's no way to call him out. What he said was he should have been ejected, which he probably should have for running into the middle of the field.

Tim.

Steve said

The umpire couldn't call anyone out, but he could have, and perhaps should have ejected the coach as per 4.05(b) PENALTY.

I read this to mean he could have called an out and should have ejected the coach. I can see where you're coming from, that he's saying you could have and should have ejected the coach. Making it two sentences would have cleared it up for me.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Steve said

The umpire couldn't call anyone out, but he could have, and perhaps should have ejected the coach as per 4.05(b) PENALTY.

I read this to mean he could have called an out and should have ejected the coach. I can see where you're coming from, that he's saying you could have and should have ejected the coach. Making it two sentences would have cleared it up for me.

Then you have an interesting way of reading the phrase "The umpire couldn't call anyone out." I read this to mean that the umpire couldn't call anyone out. You read it the way you want, I suppose.

He then goes on to say that he could have and probably should have EJECTED the coach.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Sorry for the bad grammar. He could have and perhaps should have been ejected by rule.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

As for being out of the box, 4.05(b) says: The coach shall not be considered out of the box unless the opposing manager complains, and then, the umpire shall strictly enforce the rule and require all coaches (on both teams) to remain in the coach's box at all times.

Rich,

You are using typical coach logic here. You conveniently left out the sentence preceding your quote. The one that says "It has been common practice for many years for some coaches to put one foot outside the coach's box or stand astride or otherwise be slightly outside the coaching box lines."

Now, just what part of that sentence gives you the idea that the coach can run out into the middle of the field to tell his players to run?

The penalty for violation of 4.05(b) is ejection, and this coach certainly violated this rule. Therefore, he could have easily been interpeted as interfering in the play, and ejected for such action.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Rich,

You are using typical coach logic here. You conveniently left out the sentence preceding your quote. The one that says "It has been common practice for many years for some coaches to put one foot outside the coach's box or stand astride or otherwise be slightly outside the coaching box lines."

Now, just what part of that sentence gives you the idea that the coach can run out into the middle of the field to tell his players to run?

The penalty for violation of 4.05(b) is ejection, and this coach certainly violated this rule. Therefore, he could have easily been interpeted as interfering in the play, and ejected for such action.

Which part of the case notes about it being legal (unless challenged) to leave the box is so hard to understand?

Which of the following rules, none of which appear to have been violated, would you use to eject the cioach?

3.15 No person shall be allowed on the playing field during a game except players and coaches in uniform, managers, news photographers authorized by the home team, umpires, officers of the law in uniform and watchmen or other employees of the home club. In case of unintentional interference with play by any person herein authorized to be on the playing field (except members of the offensive team participating in the game, or a coach in the coach's box, or an umpire) the ball is alive and in play. If the interference is intentional, the ball shall be dead at the moment of the interference and the umpire shall impose such penalties as in his opinion will nullify the act of interference.
NOTE: See Rule 7.11 for individuals excepted above, also see Rule 7.08 (b).
The question of intentional or unintentional interference shall be decided on the basis of the person's action. For example: a bat boy, ball attendant, policeman, etc., who tries to avoid being touched by a thrown or batted ball but still is touched by the ball would be involved in unintentional interference. If, however, he kicks the ball or picks it up or pushes it, that is considered intentional interference, regardless of what his thought may have been. PLAY: Batter hits ball to shortstop, who fields ball but throws wild past first baseman. The offensive coach at first base, to avoid being hit by the ball, falls to the ground and the first baseman on his way to retrieve the wild thrown ball, runs into the coach; the batter runner finally ends up on third base. The question is asked whether the umpire should call interference on the part of the coach. This would be up to the judgment of the umpire and if the umpire felt that the coach did all he could to avoid interfering with the play, no interference need be called. If it appeared to the umpire that the coach was obviously just making it appear he was trying not to interfere, the umpire should rule interference.
4.05
a) The offensive team shall station two base coaches on the field during its term at bat, one near first base and one near third base.
b) Base coaches shall be limited to two in number and shall (1) be in team uniform, and (2) remain within the coach's box at all times. PENALTY: The offending base coach shall be removed from the game, and shall leave the playing field.
It has been common practice for many years for some coaches to put one foot outside the coach's box or stand astride or otherwise be slightly outside the coaching box lines. The coach shall not be considered out of the box unless the opposing manager complains, and then, the umpire shall strictly enforce the rule and require all coaches (on both teams) to remain in the coach's box at all times.
It is also common practice for a coach who has a play at his base to leave the coach's box to signal the player to slide, advance or return to a base. This may be allowed if the coach does not interfere with the play in any manner.

7.09 It is interference by a batter or a runner when:
i) In the judgment of the umpire, the base coach at third base, or first base, by touching or holding the runner, physically assists him in returning to or leaving third base or first base.
j) With a runner on third base, the base coach leaves his box and acts in any manner to draw a throw by a fielder;

7.11 The players, coaches or any member of an offensive team shall vacate any space (including both dugouts) needed by a fielder who is attempting to field a batted or thrown ball.
PENALTY: Interference shall be called and the batter or runner on whom the play is being made shall be declared out.

[SanDiegoSteve]

This one:


4.05(b) Base coaches shall be limited to two in number and shall (1) be in team uniform, and (2) remain within the coach's box at all times. PENALTY: The offending base coach shall be removed from the game, and shall leave the playing field.

This one:

9.01(b)

This one:

9.01(c)

This one:

9.01(d)

[LMan]

NFHS 3-3-1(j)

PENALTY: The umpire shall eject the offender from the game, unless the offense is judged to be of a minor nature.



I'd have a haaaaaaaaaaaaaaard time seeing this particular instance as 'minor'



and yes, Im sure PONY uses OBR....so there's Ive saved you some keystrokes

[SanDiegoSteve]

I have no problem with base coaches positioning themselves behind the box, on the home plate side of the box, or on the outfield side of the box. They can even be more than a step or two away. And there is nothing that says that they can't come down the line to wave in a runner chuggin' for home. But I'm not about to let any coach come across those foul lines while the ball is still in play, or without my permission. This coach could have hollered at the batter from where he was. Running out onto the field was illegal and unnecessary. Therefore, I might (my decision, my right) jack this yahoo. Depending on the exact circumstances, I may just yell at him to get his posterior back in his box.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by btman

Thanks for clearing that up. Auggie sure needs your white horse to gallup in and save him at regular intervals.

You're welcome. Anything I can do to help you understand the English language is my pleasure.


Tim.