Did I mess this one up?

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

OK, guys. Riddle me this. Team A scores. The ball comes through the basket where it is picked up by B1. B1 throws the ball to B2 who is standing about 10 feet or so upcourt from B1. Would you then blow your whistle claiming this is an "improper" inbound pass since B1 never went OOB, or would you continue your 5 second count, thinking B1 just wants B2 to take the ball OOB for the inbound pass and wait to see what B2 does?

IOW - when do you make the determination on whether or not a player's throwing of the ball to another player in this situation is which kind of play? What criteria do you use?

It would seem to me there is something ambiguous here. Yes, I know we use our judgment all game long but wouldn't it just make it easier to change the rule so they have 5 seconds to take it out and make the pass - period. You'd still get the violation and it would take all the guesswork out of the play.

Let me tell you what I had Friday night.

End of the 2nd Quarter, Team A makes a shot with about 3 or 4 seconds left on the clock. B1 grabs the ball, moves toward the endline, and heaves the ball toward a teammate that is up near midcourt. B1 never got out of bounds. I am the covering official on the throw-in. As I go to blow my whistle, and before I can get air in my whistle, the horn goes off to end the half.

Coach of Team A is upset that we didn't call the throw-in violation, and I can understand why he wanted it, as it would have given his team one last possession before halftime, with the ball right under the basket. But the bottom line is, not having blown my whistle, or seeing the clock and knowing how much time could have been put back on the clock, there was nothing more to do. I told him this when I went to the table to get the ball before we started the 3rd Q, but he would have none of it. LAH ME!! They lost by 2 on a tip-in at the buzzer.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

IOW - when do you make the determination on whether or not a player's throwing of the ball to another player in this situation is which kind of play? What criteria do you use?

You use case book play 9.2.2SitC as the criteria. That says that the ball was at the disposal of a player to make a throw-in. The player must then be OOB to make a legal throw-in.

Common sense tells you when a player after a basket is flipping the ball to another player to take OOB for the throw-in. All you have to do is watch what the second player does with the ball. If they head for the endline, they're gonna throw the ball in. If they head up the court, call the violation. Whatinthell could be easier than that?

There's no need to change this rule.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Or what about when B1 grabs the ball, takes a step towards the end line, but never gets his foot all the way oob before throwing up court. Same deal.

See post #4 of this thread.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Yes, I know we use our judgment all game long but wouldn't it just make it easier to change the rule so they have 5 seconds to take it out and make the pass - period.

Rules 4-42-2&3 already says that. What do you want to change?

[ca_rumperee]

Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes

Let me tell you what I had Friday night.

End of the 2nd Quarter, Team A makes a shot with about 3 or 4 seconds left on the clock. B1 grabs the ball, moves toward the endline, and heaves the ball toward a teammate that is up near midcourt. B1 never got out of bounds. I am the covering official on the throw-in. As I go to blow my whistle, and before I can get air in my whistle, the horn goes off to end the half.

Coach of Team A is upset that we didn't call the throw-in violation, and I can understand why he wanted it, as it would have given his team one last possession before halftime, with the ball right under the basket. But the bottom line is, not having blown my whistle, or seeing the clock and knowing how much time could have been put back on the clock, there was nothing more to do. I told him this when I went to the table to get the ball before we started the 3rd Q, but he would have none of it. LAH ME!! They lost by 2 on a tip-in at the buzzer.

I had a play tonight, where after a made basket by team A, player B1 took ball out of the basket, took a step toward endline, handed it back to B2 and then THEY take a step toward the line and hand it back to B3 who ultimately steps out-of-bounds and passes it in to B4. Each step along the way was a "no, let me take it out!"

My question is... how does the pass back to a teammate in the "no, let me take it" differ from an actual pass inbounds (or attempt to pass inbounds).

For example, player B1 (in my above scenario) takes it out of the basket, steps towards the out-of-bounds (which they actually did), and turns and passes the ball to B2 thinking they had stepped over the endline.

What quality of the plays makes one legal and the other a violation?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by ca_rumperee

I had a play tonight, where after a made basket by team A, player B1 took ball out of the basket, took a step toward endline, handed it back to B2 and then THEY take a step toward the line and hand it back to B3 who ultimately steps out-of-bounds and passes it in to B4. Each step along the way was a "no, let me take it out!"

My question is... how does the pass back to a teammate in the "no, let me take it" differ from an actual pass inbounds (or attempt to pass inbounds).

For example, player B1 (in my above scenario) takes it out of the basket, steps towards the out-of-bounds (which they actually did), and turns and passes the ball to B2 thinking they had stepped over the endline.

What quality of the plays makes one legal and the other a violation?

To paraphrase a U.S. Supreme Court Justice, whose name I can't remember:

I'll know a violation when I see it.

MTD, Sr.

[JugglingReferee]

I don't have my books with me... but...

is there a restriction on what B can do with the ball once the official starts his count that the ball is at B's disposal?

Play: A1 scores and B grabs the dead ball. B doesn't do anything with the ball for a second, and then the official decides that the ball is now B's disposal and starts the 5-second count.

Before B takes the ball to OOB for a valid throw-in, could they hypothetically not pass the ball to a teammate near half-court, then pass the ball back to OOB on the endline, then legally pass the ball inbound?

Ruling: ?

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

I don't have my books with me... but...

is there a restriction on what B can do with the ball once the official starts his count that the ball is at B's disposal?

Play: A1 scores and B grabs the dead ball. B doesn't do anything with the ball for a second, and then the official decides that the ball is now B's disposal and starts the 5-second count.

Before B takes the ball to OOB for a valid throw-in, could they hypothetically not pass the ball to a teammate near half-court, then pass the ball back to OOB on the endline, then legally pass the ball inbound?

Ruling: ?

Do they pass to a teammate near halfcourt or not?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by ca_rumperee

I had a play tonight, where after a made basket by team A, player B1 took ball out of the basket, took a step toward endline, handed it back to B2 and then THEY take a step toward the line and hand it back to B3 who ultimately steps out-of-bounds and passes it in to B4. Each step along the way was a "no, let me take it out!"

My question is... how does the pass back to a teammate in the "no, let me take it" differ from an actual pass inbounds (or attempt to pass inbounds).

Once one of the B players is OOB with the ball, he's thrower. He can now pass the ball to a teammate who is inbounds or completely OOB as the throw-in has begun. If he hands the ball to a teammate inbounds, passes the ball to a teammate who's straddling the line or a teammate catches the ball inbounds and steps OOB, it's a violation.

For example, player B1 (in my above scenario) takes it out of the basket, steps towards the out-of-bounds (which they actually did), and turns and passes the ball to B2 thinking they had stepped over the endline.

What quality of the plays makes one legal and the other a violation?

It's either a legal throw-in or it isn't. None of these complications you throw into it make any difference. It makes no matter what the player(s) think. A player who travels but thinks he didn't, has still traveled.

Officiate the play, recognize what you see, make the call BASED ON THE RUELS, NOT WHAT YOU THINK THE RULE SHOULD BE as another does.

[ref2coach]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Please provide a rule book citing please. I don't want a case play. I want someone to provide where it says, in the rule book, that a player who is not yet stepped out of bounds is illegal. I believe it is one thing when he makes an attempt to step out of bounds and doesn't get all the way out and i believe it is different when he just grabs the ball and goes. They have to step out of bounds to be given or awarded the right for a legal or legit throw-in. I don't deem the play we're talking about an illegal throw-in or even a throw-in violation because he was not at the proper spot to make a, by definition, THROW-IN.

bt64 you asked for a rule book citation I think 4-42-2 should suffice. A throw-in is a method of putting the ball in play from out of bounds.

6-7-1 The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when: a goal, as in 5-1 is made.

Basketball Rules Fundamentals:
4 The jump ball, the throw-in and the free throw are the only methods of getting a dead ball live.

So in the situation that started the discussion if the player does not take the ball out of bounds the ball is still dead.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by ref2coach

So in the situation that started the discussion if the player does not take the ball out of bounds the ball is still dead.

Nope. The ball becomes live once it is at the disposal of any player of the throwing team. It does not have to be taken OOB in order to become live.

[ref2coach]

OK correction accepted. Reference 4-4-7d

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Ben, the problem isn't that you are wrong. The problem is that you are so badly wrong on a very basic call that is completely rules-backed and you still absolutely refuse to admit it. Your lame response and continued denial above of something that is plainly and definitively written in the rules is proof of that. And it sureasheck isn't the first time for you either. That is sad. And very telling also. If you can't admit it when you are wrong, you will never get the whole officiating thing.

And btw, I leave moderating to the mods. That's their job. They've deleted a ton of my posts in the past when they felt that I went overboard. That's their job, not some clown tsk-tsking me for saying something that might have been blunt but was still true.

As I said, feel free to call whatever you feel like calling. Ignore the case book. You'll get exactly what you deserve.

Am I mistaken, or is this a prime example of a PERSONAL ATTACK by one member of this board to another? Last I checked the TOS, those were forbidden, and yet this is allowed to stand?

I know, you'd like to see the TOS in writing, and quite frankly, so would I. They seem to have disappeared, but I emailed Brad yesterday and he did say that they were stii in effect and that personal attacks were in fact forbidden.

But maybe there's something new in there that says people with over 15,000 posts are exempt?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes

Am I mistaken,

Maybe. Perhaps the mods have determined this doesn't rise (or lower) to their particular standard of "personal attack". Different people have different standards. Or, perhaps the mods just haven't seen it yet.

Just curious - do you agree with btaylor64's interpretation and subsequent posts on this topic?

Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes

But maybe there's something new in there that says people with over 15,000 posts are exempt?

It's a good thing sarcasm isn't banned by the mods.

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Just curious - do you agree with btaylor64's interpretation and subsequent posts on this topic?

I've only been through the thread once, and I don't recall who was advocating what, but I believe that in these situations, it is up to the covering official to determine when the player has "inbounded" the ball. If, in the judgment of the official, the pass was made to "inbound" the ball, even if the player never got all the way out of bounds, it is a violation at that time. No need to wait for 5 seconds, or anything like that.

EDIT: Just went back and re-read btaylor64's first post in this thread. He couldn't be more wrong.