Partner tosses coach in first minute of game!

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

No matter what I would back my partner up!!!

NEVER, NEVER leave your WINGMAN!!!!

I can see in a 8th grade game, MAYBE in a Varsity game, but not @ all in any level NCAA game. ( I don't think this would ever happen @ the High school Varsity or NCAA levels anyway.)

If I eject a coach for a comment they made to a player I'm losing games. It's not nothing @ the DI level to hear coaches dropping the "F" bomb to their players. (Could be defined as vulgar language)

As I said I don't have a problem with tossing this 8th grade coach. Hopefully the officials turned him in and he's done coaching. My part in this discussion was to make sure we were supported in the rule book. Maybe it could be maybe it isn't.

IMO I'm not ejecting a coach for the comment @ the Varsity or NCAA level. I'm "WHACKING," making sure everyone understands why, talking to my partners & playing on.

Gimlet:

I don't know if you have ever officiated college ball (and I have and still do) but for the last couple of years the NCAA said on more than one occassion that profanity by coaches in huddles is not acceptable because of television microphones. I will grant you hell will freeze over before a Div. I coach would make that statement that was quoted in the OP, but I personally know some Div. I and II supervisors both, retired and currently supervising, I can assure you if a college head coach said what he said in the OP, and he got tossed, these supervisors would back up the officials. As I said in my earlier post, this kind of conduct should not ever be tolerated and the coach does need to be tossed.

Furthermore I know won Div. I supervisor who take games away from officials who do NOT whack a coach and I believe that this supervisor would have tossed the coach himself if his game official didn't toss him. And supervisor that would take games away from one of officials for tossing a coach in this situation doesn't deserve to be a supervisor and I hope that his officials would revolt against him.

MTD, Sr.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

That was, and is, my opinion. Like it or not.

Well, you COULD have said, "Be the squirrel."

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Gimlet:

I don't know if you have ever officiated college ball (and I have and still do) but for the last couple of years the NCAA said on more than one occasion that profanity by coaches in huddles is not acceptable because of television microphones. I will grant you hell will freeze over before a Div. I coach would make that statement that was quoted in the OP, but I personally know some Div. I and II supervisors both, retired and currently supervising, I can assure you if a college head coach said what he said in the OP, and he got tossed, these supervisors would back up the officials. As I said in my earlier post, this kind of conduct should not ever be tolerated and the coach does need to be tossed.

Furthermore I know won Div. I supervisor who take games away from officials who do NOT whack a coach and I believe that this supervisor would have tossed the coach himself if his game official didn't toss him. And supervisor that would take games away from one of officials for tossing a coach in this situation doesn't deserve to be a supervisor and I hope that his officials would revolt against him.

MTD, Sr.

Well I think we can agree that this coach would need to be penalized. We will just have to agree to dis agree on how to penalize the comment.

Would my Supervisor ( I do work college basketball) be upset with me if I gave a Bench Technical in reference to the OP? No! In fact I agree that if I didn't I could get reprimanded for not doing it. Would my Supervisor dis agree with a Flagrant "T" on a comment to a player like the OP...maybe, maybe not. Either way I'm still penalizing the coach and turning it over to the supervisor.

I know for sure with the Bench Technical I'm covered by the rules. The Flagrant "T" I'm not so sure. If I'm tossing player/coach I'm making damn sure that I'm rule supported. This was the main reason for my reference to losing games by kicking a rule administration. (Rule administration being extremely important @ the NCAA level) Has nothing to do if the supervisor would back me or not.

BTW...for the last couple of years the NCAA said on more than one occasion that profanity by coaches in huddles is not acceptable because of television microphones.

When has the NCAA said this? Was it in a bulletin, regional clinic, or the rule book? I haven't seen the bulletin, I have been to the last few regional clinics& I can't find the reference in the rule book.

I can however see game management reminding the teams if it is a TV game. Come to think of it, you really don't see camera's inside the huddle to often, primarily because they are going to commercial to pay the bills. In fact most feeds are on a delay which helps prevent such things.

Let me reemphasize that this IMHO!!!!

[just another ref]

Perhaps I am naive, or have a warped sense of things, but I tend to think that if I had heard a coach make the remark in the OP, the extreme nature of the remark would have caused me to believe that it was certainly not meant to be taken literally. Was the push that he refers to called a foul? If not, I would have thought that what he said was for the officials benefit. Anyhow, I think players at pretty much any level would know that they were not really supposed to punch an opponent in the mouth. I think that it might be more potentially dangerous if a coach was heard to instruct a player to "Use your elbows! That will keep him off of you when he starts that pushing again?" A T in this situation? I have no problem with that. Flagrant? I say probably not.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Anyhow, I think players at pretty much any level would know that they were not really supposed to punch an opponent in the mouth.

I would think that if an 8th grade girl had this yelled at her by her coach she most definitely would take it seriously. In fact, the younger the kid, the more likely they would take it just the way the coach said it.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

I would think that if an 8th grade girl had this yelled at her by her coach she most definitely would take it seriously. In fact, the younger the kid, the more likely they would take it just the way the coach said it.

Did anything notable happen after the guy got tossed? Did anybody punch anybody, or do anything unusually rough?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

Well I think we can agree that this coach would need to be penalized. We will just have to agree to dis agree on how to penalize the comment.

Would my Supervisor ( I do work college basketball) be upset with me if I gave a Bench Technical in reference to the OP? No! In fact I agree that if I didn't I could get reprimanded for not doing it. Would my Supervisor dis agree with a Flagrant "T" on a comment to a player like the OP...maybe, maybe not. Either way I'm still penalizing the coach and turning it over to the supervisor.

I know for sure with the Bench Technical I'm covered by the rules. The Flagrant "T" I'm not so sure. If I'm tossing player/coach I'm making damn sure that I'm rule supported. This was the main reason for my reference to losing games by kicking a rule administration. (Rule administration being extremely important @ the NCAA level) Has nothing to do if the supervisor would back me or not.

BTW...for the last couple of years the NCAA said on more than one occasion that profanity by coaches in huddles is not acceptable because of television microphones.

When has the NCAA said this? Was it in a bulletin, regional clinic, or the rule book? I haven't seen the bulletin, I have been to the last few regional clinics& I can't find the reference in the rule book.

I can however see game management reminding the teams if it is a TV game. Come to think of it, you really don't see camera's inside the huddle to often, primarily because they are going to commercial to pay the bills. In fact most feeds are on a delay which helps prevent such things.

Let me reemphasize that this IMHO!!!!

Gimlet:

I am a bald old geezer who has been officiating boys'/girls' H.S. for 37 years, women's college for 34 years, and men's college for 15 years; that means I was officiating H.S. and college basketball before you were even a gleam in your father's eye and I am a generation of officials that believe that has not succumb to the philosophy of chest thumping, in your face, get out of my house type of sportsmanship that has become the norm in sports today. The huddle conduct that I mentioned was addressed in a bulletin a number of years ago. It seems that the presidents of NCAA Div. I schools really "care" about how their school are perceived by the public. Div. I college coaches are extremely well compensated professionals and they should conduct themselves accordingly, and telling a player to "beat the hell" out of an opposing player is not appropriate conduct of an extremely well compensated professional to conduct himself.

Personally, I cannot believe a Div. I coach would ever make such a comment within earshot of an official. But if he did he should be held to the same high standard that a 7th grade coach: ejection. I do not believe this a “lets agree to disagree” discussion. As long as we take the position that boys will be boys, then game conduct will only get worse. If you are afraid that you will lose college games if you toss a college coach, then get out of the game. Any supervisor that would not support you is not worth working for because he will sell you done the river any chance he gets because he has no scruples.

MTD, Sr.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Gimlet:

I am a bald old geezer who has been officiating boys'/girls' H.S. for 37 years, women's college for 34 years, and men's college for 15 years; that means I was officiating H.S. and college basketball before you were even a gleam in your father's eye and I am a generation of officials that believe that has not succumb to the philosophy of chest thumping, in your face, get out of my house type of sportsmanship that has become the norm in sports today. The huddle conduct that I mentioned was addressed in a bulletin a number of years ago. It seems that the presidents of NCAA Div. I schools really "care" about how their school are perceived by the public. Div. I college coaches are extremely well compensated professionals and they should conduct themselves accordingly, and telling a player to "beat the hell" out of an opposing player is not appropriate conduct of an extremely well compensated professional to conduct himself.


Personally, I cannot believe a Div. I coach would ever make such a comment within earshot of an official. But if he did he should be held to the same high standard that a 7th grade coach: ejection. I do not believe this a “lets agree to disagree” discussion. As long as we take the position that boys will be boys, then game conduct will only get worse. If you are afraid that you will lose college games if you toss a college coach, then get out of the game. Any supervisor that would not support you is not worth working for because he will sell you done the river any chance he gets because he has no scruples.

MTD, Sr.

Certainly I agree with you that I doubt we would ever hear such a statement now.

I work DI (W's) and have ran this play by half dozen of my counterparts & a couple of my counterparts that work DI (M's)They all agreed that you would have to do something, but a Flagrant "T" would never be an option unless, "We have a live ball, coach tells his player to hit another player." If he/she does, player & coach is gone, Flagrant "T."

I worked a DI game this afternoon where Coach calls a T/O and proceeds to ask his team what the F*** are you doing? That's nothing and will never be nothing. If there was a bulletin that covered this, I haven't seen it or heard about it. One thing is for sure that it has been forgotten.

I can see why it would seem that the right thing to do is to toss the coach. I'm just saying that I (IMHO) don't think that action would be supported by the rules. If I administer a rule wrong then I'm losing games...PERIOD!! As I should! I would absolutely have no problem sending a coach if the coach happened to do something that the rules say he/she should be ejected.

You have been around a lot longer then I have and I believe you would handle this just the way you said. Maybe thats "old school" maybe its not. I'm going to close by saying if you can do it and get by with it, GREAT!!! Since I'm not from the "old school," I'm @ most going with a Direct "T" on the coach..maybe...depending on the context of his/her statement.

This has nothing to do with the supervisor backing me or not. If I kick a rule , I kicked the rule not the supervisor. The supervisor can't protect me if I kicked a rule or in this case toss a coach for a comment that he/she made to HIS/HER player . If you kick a rule @ the DI level you WILL LOSE GAMES!!!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

I work DI (W's) and have ran this play by half dozen of my counterparts & a couple of my counterparts that work DI (M's)They all agreed that you would have to do something, but a Flagrant "T" would never be an option unless, "We have a live ball, coach tells his player to hit another player." If he/she does, player & coach is gone, Flagrant "T."

That just might be the most ridiculous reasoning that I have ever read on this forum. You and your "counterparts" are saying it's a flagrant technical foul to commit a certain act at CERTAIN times, but it's NOT a flagrant technical foul to commit the exact SAME act at ALL times. Are you and your "counterparts" serious?

You and your "counterparts" are just looking for excuses NOT to call the flagrant technical foul imo. And you're all doing a great job finding those excuses too. That's very telling, also imo.

[canuckref]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Gimlet:

I don't know if you have ever officiated college ball (and I have and still do) but for the last couple of years the NCAA said on more than one occassion that profanity by coaches in huddles is not acceptable because of television microphones. I will grant you hell will freeze over before a Div. I coach would make that statement that was quoted in the OP, but I personally know some Div. I and II supervisors both, retired and currently supervising, I can assure you if a college head coach said what he said in the OP, and he got tossed, these supervisors would back up the officials. As I said in my earlier post, this kind of conduct should not ever be tolerated and the coach does need to be tossed.

Furthermore I know won Div. I supervisor who take games away from officials who do NOT whack a coach and I believe that this supervisor would have tossed the coach himself if his game official didn't toss him. And supervisor that would take games away from one of officials for tossing a coach in this situation doesn't deserve to be a supervisor and I hope that his officials would revolt against him.

MTD, Sr.

agree 100%...i think I'm turning into an official MTD fanboy...somebody stop me

[Adam]

Originally Posted by canuckref

agree 100%...i think I'm turning into an official MTD fanboy...somebody stop me

Padgett has some meds that might help with that.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I am a generation of officials that believe that has not succumb to the philosophy of chest thumping, in your face, get out of my house type of sportsmanship that has become the norm in sports today.

Amen, brother.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Padgett has some meds that might help with that.

You can order them by using my toll-free number, 800.YOU'RE.OUTTAHERE

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

That just might be the most ridiculous reasoning that I have ever read on this forum. You and your "counterparts" are saying it's a flagrant technical foul to commit a certain act at CERTAIN times, but it's NOT a flagrant technical foul to commit the exact SAME act at ALL times. Are you and your "counterparts" serious?

You and your "counterparts" are just looking for excuses NOT to call the flagrant technical foul imo. And you're all doing a great job finding those excuses too. That's very telling, also imo.

Well JR since you obviously want to dis agree on everything I say find me the rule in the NCAA RB that would allow you to toss this coach for a comment to his player that didn't initiate a fight.

If you would actually take the time to comprehend what I wrote then you would understand what I said. The difference in penalizing the comment is if the player actually does punch a kid. If during a T/O you hear the coach make the comment then how can you by rule toss him if the player hasn't done anything that would be defined as a fight. ( AGAIN BY RULE)

In this case I'm not saying that you play on as if nothing happened. You, depending on the context of the statement, would address what was said to the coach and player. Regardless of what you do your going to make sure that your partners know what is going on. If you give the Bench "T" then that will also require a phone call to your supervisor.

Its a completely different story if the ball was live, coach tells his player to hit another player." If he/she does, player & coach is gone, Flagrant "T." This is penalized as fighting since the coach initiated the fight and the player hit the kid.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

1) Well JR since you obviously want to disagree on everything I say find me the rule in the NCAA RB that would allow you to toss this coach for a comment to his player that didn't initiate a fight.

Its a completely different story if the ball was live, coach tells his player to hit another player." If he/she does, player & coach is gone, Flagrant "T." This is penalized as fighting since the coach initiated the fight and the player hit the kid.

1) NCAA rule 4-29-3(f)2--"A flagrant non-contact technical foul is an infraction that involves extreme, sometimes persistent, vulgar, abusive contact." Also note that NCAA rule 10-4-1 is a catch-all clause. It states "committing an unsporting act, including but not limited to the following:" Again, note the "not limited to." Are you really trying to say that bench technicals during a dead ball can't be flagrant in nature? Also, you and your D1 counterparts may be surprised to find that 4-29-3(f) is labeled "Flagrant technical foul-DEAD BALL." Unsporting action by a coach that is deemed flagrant can be called at any time during an official's jurisdiction. Sooooooo, yes, I sureashell do disagree with you on this one.

Again, trying to say that the exact same act can be flagrant in nature during a live ball but not during a dead ball is completely ridiculous.

And let me give you another little piece of advice. Stating that numerous, un-named and anonymous D1 officials agree with you doesn't really advance the veracity of your claims. You can try to big-time it, but that won't work unless people actually believe you. Or agree with you. And stating that you're a D1 Womens official doesn't really impress me either, if that was your intent. Let your own arguments do your talking unless you're willing to name sources that can be checked. Your sources can be just as wrong as you.