Partner tosses coach in first minute of game!

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) NCAA rule 4-29-3(f)2--"A flagrant non-contact technical foul is an infraction that involves extreme, sometimes persistent, vulgar, abusive contact." Also note that NCAA rule 10-4-1 is a catch-all clause. It states "committing an unsporting act, including but not limited to the following:" Again, note the "not limited to." Are you really trying to say that bench technicals during a dead ball can't be flagrant in nature? Also, you and your D1 counterparts may be surprised to find that 4-29-3(f) is labeled "Flagrant technical foul-DEAD BALL." Unsporting action by a coach that is deemed flagrant can be called at any time during an official's jurisdiction. Sooooooo, yes, I sureashell do disagree with you on this one.

Again, trying to say that the exact same act can be flagrant in nature during a live ball but not during a dead ball is completely ridiculous.

And let me give you another little piece of advice. Stating that numerous, un-named and anonymous D1 officials agree with you doesn't really advance the veracity of your claims. You can try to big-time it, but that won't work unless people actually believe you. Or agree with you. And stating that you're a D1 Womens official doesn't really impress me either, if that was your intent. Let your own arguments do your talking unless you're willing to name sources that can be checked. Your sources can be just as wrong as you.

Round and round we go where we stop nobody knows!!! First let me say that I wasn't "BIG TIMING," anybody. My statement was to MTD who asked and also said that @ the DI level there has been some bulletins addressing profanity in team huddles.

I really don't care if you believe who/if I talked to anybody else. I did for the simple reason to see what other officials both @ the DI and lower levels thought. I'm not going to give you names of other officials on a national forum, so that you can check out the validity of the sources. They weren't intended to be sources rather just other officials with an opinion.

If you want to try and label the coaches comment that he made to his player that didn't result in any action, "extreme , sometimes persistent,vulgar, abusive conduct," then good luck with that!!!

Rule 10-4-1 "......but not limited to..." Penalty DIRECT TECHNICAL FOUL!!! Its one or the other. If its going to be a Bench Flagrant then that falls under Art. 8 & 9. (You just clarified why this would be a Bench T and not a Flagrant)

The comment to his player is Unsportsmanlike..I agree!!! Always have!!! If the player doesn't act on the comment then it's nothing more the a Bench T.

If the ball is live or dead for that matter and he tells his player to punch and the player Punch's, different story. The difference in the two comments is that one was a comment without any action (unsporting) and the other was a comment with action (Flagrant personnel or technical), which would be defined as fighting.... One happened while the ball is live Flagrant personnel, while the ball is dead Flagrant T.

4-26-4 " When during a confrontation, an individual uses unsportsmanlike acts or comments which, in the opinion of the official, provoke the other individual to retaliate by fighting, it shall be fighting..."

Coaches comments provoked the kid to fight so then both the coach and the player would be ejected.

If its just a unsporting comment then it can't be flagrant unless it instigates a fight. Its just simply penalized under Rule 10-4-1 "Committing a unsportsmanlike act..."

To toss the coach with a Flagrant T on just the comment and justifying it with Rule 4-29-3f is a stretch maybe/maybe not. However the Bench T under Rule 10-4-1 is right on and can't be argued, it was unsportsmanlike!!!

Well JR we both know that we aren't going to agree on this. I'm OK with that. If it happens to you or me, and I hope it doesn't for both our sakes, then you handle your way and I will handle it mine. Thats my opinion & I'm sticking to it!

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

If you want to try and label the coaches comment that he made to his player that didn't result in any action, "extreme , sometimes persistent,vulgar, abusive conduct," then good luck with that!!!

You don't think that a comment from an 8th grade girls coach telling a player to punch another player is "extreme conduct"? I guess you've never worked this level.

And - who said this level uses NCAA rules anyway? In my entire career (going back to the Naismith days) I can't think of a rec official at that level who wouldn't consider that comment "extreme".

Not only should a coach who says that be ejected, he should be tarred and feathered, drawn and quartered then locked in a closet and forced to listen to Barry Manilow at FULL VOLUME for 24 hours!!!

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

You don't think that a comment from an 8th grade girls coach telling a player to punch another player is "extreme conduct"? I guess you've never worked this level.

And - who said this level uses NCAA rules anyway? In my entire career (going back to the Naismith days) I can't think of a rec official at that level who wouldn't consider that comment "extreme".

Not only should a coach who says that be ejected, he should be tarred and feathered, drawn and quartered then locked in a closet and forced to listen to Barry Manilow at FULL VOLUME for 24 hours!!!

Somewhere along this discussion we got to talking about what we would do if this was @ the collegiate level.

I think you ought to submit the Barry Manilow Penalty to the FED for a rule change!!!

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

I think you ought to submit the Barry Manilow Penalty to the FED for a rule change!!!

I tried, but they said it violated the U.S. Constitution. They claimed it qualified as cruel and unusual punishment.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

I really don't care if you believe who/if I talked to anybody else. I did for the simple reason to see what other officials both @ the DI and lower levels thought.

I talked to officials at the D1 and lower levels too. They all thought that you and your counterparts were full of sh!t.

I guess we'll just have to disagree.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

I tried, but they said it violated the U.S. Constitution. They claimed it qualified as cruel and unusual punishment.

Maybe they could choose between Barry & Perry Como.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Not only should a coach who says that be ejected, he should be tarred and feathered, drawn and quartered then locked in a closet and forced to listen to Barry Manilow at FULL VOLUME for 24 hours!!!

Oh, coach, you came and you gave without taking, but I sent you away!

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Oh, coach, you came and you gave without taking, but I sent you away!

Please, I just ate.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

GimLet:

In your post #46, you stated that comments by a coach can be unsportsmanlike but cannot be flagrant unless it causes a player to instigate a fight. Therefore if the coach stands in the coaching box and says to his bench personnel in a voice load enough for you that one of your partners is: "a f**king a**hole and I wish one of my players would punch his lights out." That, my young friend, is definately a flagrant techincal foul. Remember if a coach makes comments to bench personnel load enough for the game officials to hear him, he isn't talking to his bench personnel, he is talking to the game officials.

MTD, Sr.


P.S. I am about to make what some people would describe as politically incorrect. BUT, because of the following:

1) In 1974 I was the first male to officiate women's college basketball (both Div. I and JUCO) in the state of Florida and one of the first in the US southeast.

2) I still have friends who officiate Div. I women's BB (including one who has officiated in the Olympics and others that have officiated the Div. I title game and in the WNBA.

I feel qualified to make the statements I am about to make.

I have always been loyal to the women's game even when I was offered the chance to officiate men's Div. III games over 20 yrs ago. But today if given the choice between officiate a women's Div. I game and officaiting a men's Div. III jr. varsity game, I will take the men's game everytime (but the game fee of the women's game would make me think once about taking it, LOL). I believe that the people running the women's side of college basketball do not have a clue about anything especially rules and officiating, and it is reflected in some of the young officials (both male and female) who are buy into their nonsense.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

In your post #46, you stated that comments by a coach can be unsportsmanlike but cannot be flagrant unless it causes a player to instigate a fight. Therefore if the coach stands in the coaching box and says to his bench personnel in a voice load enough for you that one of your partners is: "a f**king a**hole and I wish one of my players would punch his lights out." .

Good point!!! Let me rephrase..its either unsportsmanlike..Bench "T" or I can see where this comment, if your 100% sure that its directed @ your partner loud enough for everyone to hear, would be abusive & VULGAR ....Flagrant T ejection.

1) In 1974 I was the first male to officiate women's college basketball (both Div. I and JUCO) in the state of Florida and one of the first in the US southeast..

You've been around officiating for a long while and that within in itself deserves our respect. However I also understand that the game has changed quite a bit, both on the Women's & Men's side.

But today if given the choice between officiate a women's Div. I game and officiating a men's Div. III jr. varsity game, I will take the men's game everytime (but the game fee of the women's game would make me think once about taking it, LOL). .

I like your reference to the money. I worked both Women's & Men's until I was lucky enough to make it into the DI Women's ranks. I by far have a lot to learn and hope that I never stop looking for ways to improve, but I personally would work a Women's DI game over any DIII Men's game.

I worked a really good DII Women's game the other night where we didn't have to call a foul until 6:30 to go in the first half, # 15 in the country playing a team that was undefeated in conference play. GREAT GAME!!!!The play on the women's side is a lot better now then it has ever been. The play on the Men's side is good but so is the play on the Women's side. Heck, we all have those games where the play is terrible but in no way shape or form is todays Women's play bad everywhere.

I believe that the people running the women's side of college basketball do not have a clue about anything especially rules and officiating, and it is reflected in some of the young officials (both male and female).

We have gotten a lot better in this area over the last several years with Mary Strukoff taking over and the advent of EOfficials.com. The NCAA W are really starting to use technology to improve officials on rules and play calling. There is a tremendous amount of attention focused on officials for the officials to improve in the two a aforementioned area's along with administration , communication, and physical fitness.

We are now able to download films on-line from several conferences. Some conferences are required to have a copy of the game ready for post game break down within so minutes after the game is over. I'm sure this is the same on the Men's side. To say that they don't have a clue just isn't correct.

Its definitely two different games. There are just as many QUALITY officials on the Women's side as there are on the Men's side. They are proficient in their game respectively.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Please, I just ate.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

Good point!!! Let me rephrase..its either unsportsmanlike..Bench "T" or I can see where this comment, if your 100% sure that its directed @ your partner loud enough for everyone to hear, would be abusive & VULGAR ....Flagrant T ejection.



You've been around officiating for a long while and that within in itself deserves our respect. However I also understand that the game has changed quite a bit, both on the Women's & Men's side.



I like your reference to the money. I worked both Women's & Men's until I was lucky enough to make it into the DI Women's ranks. I by far have a lot to learn and hope that I never stop looking for ways to improve, but I personally would work a Women's DI game over any DIII Men's game.

I worked a really good DII Women's game the other night where we didn't have to call a foul until 6:30 to go in the first half, # 15 in the country playing a team that was undefeated in conference play. GREAT GAME!!!!The play on the women's side is a lot better now then it has ever been. The play on the Men's side is good but so is the play on the Women's side. Heck, we all have those games where the play is terrible but in no way shape or form is todays Women's play bad everywhere.



We have gotten a lot better in this area over the last several years with Mary Strukoff taking over and the advent of EOfficials.com. The NCAA W are really starting to use technology to improve officials on rules and play calling. There is a tremendous amount of attention focused on officials for the officials to improve in the two a aforementioned area's along with administration , communication, and physical fitness.

We are now able to download films on-line from several conferences. Some conferences are required to have a copy of the game ready for post game break down within so minutes after the game is over. I'm sure this is the same on the Men's side. To say that they don't have a clue just isn't correct.

Its definitely two different games. There are just as many QUALITY officials on the Women's side as there are on the Men's side. They are proficient in their game respectively.

Quality of play has nothing to due with why I would choose a men's college Div. III jr. varsity game over a women's college Div. I game. I just find some females, both officials and coaches, absolutely clueless about the history of women's college basketball. Too many female officials, have no clue as to what officiating was like in the early days of the game. Not all females in the game are like this, but I find that some of the ones who have acquired positions of importance just don't get it and their philosphies are influencig the newer officials both male and female that are just not good for the game in my humble opinion.

MTD, Sr.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

If you want to try and label the coaches comment that he made to his player that didn't result in any action, "extreme , sometimes persistent,vulgar, abusive conduct," then good luck with that!!!

Gimlet, I'm not a D1 ref, and I never will be. Probably won't ever do college of any level. But I like to read these kinds of discussion relating to the different levels, and try to understand the mindset behind the thinking. I understand your argument that at your level, this might be just a T without the ejection (not saying I agree or disagree, just understanding).

The part I'm confused about is the part about the player punching someone. If the coach yells to a player on the floor that she should punch someone, and before the whistle is even blown there's a punch, then, yea, I see that being an ejection.

But in the OP, the coach told the girl to punch her opponent the next time the girl got bumped. Well, at your level now, say you hear that comment and just hand out the T. Now, if the player waited until she got bumped to actually act on the incitement, do you eject the coach retroactively, so to speak? I"m confused how that would work in real life.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Gimlet, I'm not a D1 ref, and I never will be. Probably won't ever do college of any level. But I like to read these kinds of discussion relating to the different levels, and try to understand the mindset behind the thinking. I understand your argument that at your level, this might be just a T without the ejection (not saying I agree or disagree, just understanding).

The part I'm confused about is the part about the player punching someone. If the coach yells to a player on the floor that she should punch someone, and before the whistle is even blown there's a punch, then, yea, I see that being an ejection.

But in the OP, the coach told the girl to punch her opponent the next time the girl got bumped. Well, at your level now, say you hear that comment and just hand out the T. Now, if the player waited until she got bumped to actually act on the incitement, do you eject the coach retroactively, so to speak? I"m confused how that would work in real life.

Well I guess it all depends on the space and time between the "T" and the player punching. If Its right after the "T" then sure toss the coach for instigating a fight!

By assessing the "T", verbalizing why to the coach sends the right message to the players. Hopefully a player wouldn't go ahead and punch another. Really I'm hoping no one ever has to ever deal with this in their game!! Again this IMHO and how I interpret and enforce the rules.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Gimlet, I'm not a D1 ref, and I never will be. Probably won't ever do college of any level.

Juulie - I just got a call from a college A.D. to work a game and I need a partner. Are you up for it? It's a big rivalry game between Solid State and Whatsamatta U.

Bullwinkle is the A.D. (Antler Director). The game is in Pottsylvania. Phil Knight said we could use one of his jets.

BTW - did you take my meds?