Over and Back by stepping out of "bounds"

[Loudwhistle]

Last night Varsity Girls game, I'm watching from the stands, A1 is dribbling in her front court and gets too close to the halfcourt line, she realizes that her momentum is going to carry her across the halfcourt line thus commiting a backcourt violation so before she leaves her front court she pushes the ball with one hand, basically still dribbling, so that the ball stays in front court yet she takes 2 steps in the back court and then catches up to the ball in front court and continues to dribble, ref calls over and back. Reminded me of picture in one of the case books where a guy is dribbling along the boundary line and he steps out of bounds yet the ball stays in bounds, and then he comes back in bounds still dribbling the ball, viloation! For me as a ref, it sometimes helps me to think of back court as out of bounds for the team that has established the ball in their front court. (I know there are times when players can legally enter the backcourt) A question I have from what I saw last night though is, can team players that have established front court move across the half court line trying to shake a defender? I'm talking about trying to get open to receive a pass. Of course they have to get back onto front court to get the ball.

[Dan_ref]

If I understand the play correctly I have nothing on this.... I think.

Originally Posted by Loudwhistle

A question I have from what I saw last night though is, can team players that have established front court move across the half court line trying to shake a defender? I'm talking about trying to get open to receive a pass. Of course they have to get back onto front court to get the ball.

I dont see why not, but as a defender I wouldn't follow the offense back there. Seems as though the defender should wait at the division line while the offensive player is "shaking" in the backcourt.

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

I dont see why not, but as a defender I wouldn't follow the offense back there. Seems as though the defender should wait at the division line while the offensive player is "shaking" in the backcourt.

Good point, why bother playing defense there?

[kbilla]

Absolutely they can....

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Loudwhistle

before she leaves her front court she pushes the ball with one hand, basically still dribbling, so that the ball stays in front court yet she takes 2 steps in the back court and then catches up to the ball in front court and continues to dribble, ref calls over and back.

I'm confused -- where's the violation?

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I'm confused -- where's the violation?

Good point Bob, I didn't read the details in the post, just sort of skipped to the question....can't apply the OOB rules to the BC in this case, the BC rule only says that a player can't be the first to touch the ball in the BC if it was caused to go to the BC by his/her teammate...doesn't say anything about a dribble.....in this case the ball never went into the BC, therefore how can you have a violation?

[Coltdoggs]

I've got no violation here...

I'm wondering why the guard did not grab the ball and head to the cup while said offensive player was doing the two-step into the BC....that's what I would have done.....

[Camron Rust]

It all depends on whether you cosider the dribble "interrupted" or not.

If it is an interrupted dribble, it is no violation as the ball never gains BC status.

If not an interrupted dribble, it is a violation because the ball gains BC status when the dribbler steps in the BC, even if they're not touching the ball at the moment they touch the BC...if the player in the BC is in control of the ball, the ball is in the BC. The ball doesn't have to touch in BC to gain BC status....either the player or the ball can give the ball BC status.

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

It all depends on whether you cosider the dribble "interrupted" or not.

If it is an interrupted dribble, it is no violation as the ball never gains BC status.

If not an interrupted dribble, it is a violation because the ball gains BC status when the dribbler steps in the BC, even if they're not touching the ball at the moment they touch the BC...if the player in the BC is in control of the ball, the ball is in the BC. The ball doesn't have to touch in BC to gain BC status....either the player or the ball can give the ball BC status.

I know this is true for OOB, but is it also true for BC? I didn't think that it was...anybody have the case play?

[Coltdoggs]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

It all depends on whether you cosider the dribble "interrupted" or not.

If it is an interrupted dribble, it is no violation as the ball never gains BC status.

If not an interrupted dribble, it is a violation because the ball gains BC status when the dribbler steps in the BC, even if they're not touching the ball at the moment they touch the BC...if the player in the BC is in control of the ball, the ball is in the BC. The ball doesn't have to touch in BC to gain BC status....either the player or the ball can give the ball BC status.

So you are saying even tho dribbling player's feet went into BC and then came back into FC, not touching the ball during this time of BC....because of no interrupted dribble, this is still a controlled dribble thus a BC violation....interesting...

As Cam Rust says....I think the determining factor here is does the official deem it an interrupted dribble or not.

So that begs me to ask....What's the written rule read on interrupted dribble...whats the written definition? (I'll take a Vet's explanation too) Does it have to be touched by the opposing team, can a mishandled crossover dribble that the dribble regains control of constititue interrupted...what the rule book say?

Originally Posted by kbilla

Good point Bob, I didn't read the details in the post, just sort of skipped to the question....can't apply the OOB rules to the BC in this case, the BC rule only says that a player can't be the first to touch the ball in the BC if it was caused to go to the BC by his/her teammate...doesn't say anything about a dribble.....in this case the ball never went into the BC, therefore how can you have a violation?

Wait a minute, let me go back and read it again:

she realizes that her momentum is going to carry her across the halfcourt line thus commiting a backcourt violation so before she leaves her front court she pushes the ball with one hand, basically still dribbling, so that the ball stays in front court yet she takes 2 steps in the back court and then catches up to the ball in front court and continues to dribble, ref calls over and back.

So if the dribbler (in the frontcourt) steps on the division line... that's not a BC violation??

If the dribbler steps on the sideline... that's not an OOB violation??

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Wait a minute, let me go back and read it again:

she realizes that her momentum is going to carry her across the halfcourt line thus commiting a backcourt violation so before she leaves her front court she pushes the ball with one hand, basically still dribbling, so that the ball stays in front court yet she takes 2 steps in the back court and then catches up to the ball in front court and continues to dribble, ref calls over and back.

So if the dribbler (in the frontcourt) steps on the division line... that's not a BC violation??

If the dribbler steps on the sideline... that's not an OOB violation??

Sideline YES. Division line, how can you have a BC violation if the ball never went to the BC? I don't have my rulebook with me, but does the section covering BC even reference "dribbler"? I suspect it doesn't....

Originally Posted by kbilla

Sideline YES. Division line, how can you have a BC violation if the ball never went to the BC?



I don't have my rulebook with me, but does the section covering BC even reference "dribbler"? I suspect it doesn't....

Have I really been officiating this play incorrectly all this time? Or do you have a misunderstanding of 4-4-1... that is the question.

BTW, how I interpreted the OP there was no interupted dribble, everything was done purposely

[PSidbury]

Originally Posted by kbilla

...how can you have a BC violation if the ball never went to the BC?...

I am confused. Which, doesn't take much considering this is my first season...

The ball does not have to contact the backcourt for a violation to occur, however if any part of the player while in possession of the ball contacts the backcourt... then yes... it is a backcourt violation.

Right...?

Is that the thread's argument ?

Thanks,
Paul