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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 03, 2008, 11:47am
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Over and Back by stepping out of "bounds"

Last night Varsity Girls game, I'm watching from the stands, A1 is dribbling in her front court and gets too close to the halfcourt line, she realizes that her momentum is going to carry her across the halfcourt line thus commiting a backcourt violation so before she leaves her front court she pushes the ball with one hand, basically still dribbling, so that the ball stays in front court yet she takes 2 steps in the back court and then catches up to the ball in front court and continues to dribble, ref calls over and back. Reminded me of picture in one of the case books where a guy is dribbling along the boundary line and he steps out of bounds yet the ball stays in bounds, and then he comes back in bounds still dribbling the ball, viloation! For me as a ref, it sometimes helps me to think of back court as out of bounds for the team that has established the ball in their front court. (I know there are times when players can legally enter the backcourt) A question I have from what I saw last night though is, can team players that have established front court move across the half court line trying to shake a defender? I'm talking about trying to get open to receive a pass. Of course they have to get back onto front court to get the ball.
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Old Thu Jan 03, 2008, 11:54am
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If I understand the play correctly I have nothing on this.... I think.
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Old Thu Jan 03, 2008, 11:56am
Ch1town
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loudwhistle
A question I have from what I saw last night though is, can team players that have established front court move across the half court line trying to shake a defender? I'm talking about trying to get open to receive a pass. Of course they have to get back onto front court to get the ball.

I dont see why not, but as a defender I wouldn't follow the offense back there. Seems as though the defender should wait at the division line while the offensive player is "shaking" in the backcourt.
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Old Thu Jan 03, 2008, 11:56am
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Absolutely they can....
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 03, 2008, 11:57am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town
I dont see why not, but as a defender I wouldn't follow the offense back there. Seems as though the defender should wait at the division line while the offensive player is "shaking" in the backcourt.
Good point, why bother playing defense there?
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 03, 2008, 12:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loudwhistle
before she leaves her front court she pushes the ball with one hand, basically still dribbling, so that the ball stays in front court yet she takes 2 steps in the back court and then catches up to the ball in front court and continues to dribble, ref calls over and back.
I'm confused -- where's the violation?
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 03, 2008, 12:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loudwhistle
Last night Varsity Girls game, I'm watching from the stands, A1 is dribbling in her front court and gets too close to the halfcourt line, she realizes that her momentum is going to carry her across the halfcourt line thus commiting a backcourt violation so before she leaves her front court she pushes the ball with one hand, basically still dribbling, so that the ball stays in front court yet she takes 2 steps in the back court and then catches up to the ball in front court and continues to dribble, ref calls over and back. Reminded me of picture in one of the case books where a guy is dribbling along the boundary line and he steps out of bounds yet the ball stays in bounds, and then he comes back in bounds still dribbling the ball, viloation! For me as a ref, it sometimes helps me to think of back court as out of bounds for the team that has established the ball in their front court. (I know there are times when players can legally enter the backcourt) A question I have from what I saw last night though is, can team players that have established front court move across the half court line trying to shake a defender? I'm talking about trying to get open to receive a pass. Of course they have to get back onto front court to get the ball.
It's one of the myths of basketball that the backcourt rule is just the same as the out-of-bounds rule (maybe adding that there is a delayed violation if the ball hits the backcourt coming from the FC).

It's not. It's perfectly legal to play in the backcourt. Players have to pay attention not to carry the ball in the BC after it has gained FC status (in FIBA the rule is slightly different, but the principle is the same): which is not the same as the ball going out of bounds.

And I believe that in NF the described play would be classified as an interrupted dribble, hence it would have been legal also to go out of bounds and reestablishing in-bounds status before touching the ball again, if I'm not mistaken.

Ciao
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Old Thu Jan 03, 2008, 12:17pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins
I'm confused -- where's the violation?
Good point Bob, I didn't read the details in the post, just sort of skipped to the question....can't apply the OOB rules to the BC in this case, the BC rule only says that a player can't be the first to touch the ball in the BC if it was caused to go to the BC by his/her teammate...doesn't say anything about a dribble.....in this case the ball never went into the BC, therefore how can you have a violation?
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Old Thu Jan 03, 2008, 12:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eg-italy
It's one of the myths of basketball that the backcourt rule is just the same as the out-of-bounds rule (maybe adding that there is a delayed violation if the ball hits the backcourt coming from the FC).

It's not. It's perfectly legal to play in the backcourt. Players have to pay attention not to carry the ball in the BC after it has gained FC status (in FIBA the rule is slightly different, but the principle is the same): which is not the same as the ball going out of bounds.

And I believe that in NF the described play would be classified as an interrupted dribble, hence it would have been legal also to go out of bounds and reestablishing in-bounds status before touching the ball again, if I'm not mistaken.

Ciao
Would this be an interuppted dribble though if she just decided to not dribble the ball as she went out of bounds and then re-established? What is the difference between this and just running along the sideline, stepping out of bounds each time you push the ball to the floor, but back inbounds each time you are in contact with the ball? I would have a violation in the case described in the OP if it was on the sideline...
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Old Thu Jan 03, 2008, 12:26pm
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I've got no violation here...

I'm wondering why the guard did not grab the ball and head to the cup while said offensive player was doing the two-step into the BC....that's what I would have done.....
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Old Thu Jan 03, 2008, 12:29pm
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Originally Posted by kbilla
Good point Bob, I didn't read the details in the post, just sort of skipped to the question....can't apply the OOB rules to the BC in this case, the BC rule only says that a player can't be the first to touch the ball in the BC if it was caused to go to the BC by his/her teammate...doesn't say anything about a dribble.....in this case the ball never went into the BC, therefore how can you have a violation?
Wait a minute, let me go back and read it again:

she realizes that her momentum is going to carry her across the halfcourt line thus commiting a backcourt violation so before she leaves her front court she pushes the ball with one hand, basically still dribbling, so that the ball stays in front court yet she takes 2 steps in the back court and then catches up to the ball in front court and continues to dribble, ref calls over and back.

So if the dribbler (in the frontcourt) steps on the division line... that's not a BC violation??

If the dribbler steps on the sideline... that's not an OOB violation??
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Old Thu Jan 03, 2008, 12:31pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town
Wait a minute, let me go back and read it again:

she realizes that her momentum is going to carry her across the halfcourt line thus commiting a backcourt violation so before she leaves her front court she pushes the ball with one hand, basically still dribbling, so that the ball stays in front court yet she takes 2 steps in the back court and then catches up to the ball in front court and continues to dribble, ref calls over and back.

So if the dribbler (in the frontcourt) steps on the division line... that's not a BC violation??

If the dribbler steps on the sideline... that's not an OOB violation??
Sideline YES. Division line, how can you have a BC violation if the ball never went to the BC? I don't have my rulebook with me, but does the section covering BC even reference "dribbler"? I suspect it doesn't....
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 03, 2008, 12:36pm
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It all depends on whether you cosider the dribble "interrupted" or not.

If it is an interrupted dribble, it is no violation as the ball never gains BC status.

If not an interrupted dribble, it is a violation because the ball gains BC status when the dribbler steps in the BC, even if they're not touching the ball at the moment they touch the BC...if the player in the BC is in control of the ball, the ball is in the BC. The ball doesn't have to touch in BC to gain BC status....either the player or the ball can give the ball BC status.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 03, 2008, 12:38pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust
It all depends on whether you cosider the dribble "interrupted" or not.

If it is an interrupted dribble, it is no violation as the ball never gains BC status.

If not an interrupted dribble, it is a violation because the ball gains BC status when the dribbler steps in the BC, even if they're not touching the ball at the moment they touch the BC...if the player in the BC is in control of the ball, the ball is in the BC. The ball doesn't have to touch in BC to gain BC status....either the player or the ball can give the ball BC status.
I know this is true for OOB, but is it also true for BC? I didn't think that it was...anybody have the case play?
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Old Thu Jan 03, 2008, 12:38pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins
I'm confused -- where's the violation?
Bpb,
THis is why I posted this situation, I didn't think it was a violation in regards to backcourt or anything else but I wanted to put it to the acid test of this forum. I had a similar thing happen 2 weeks ago, team blue has front court status and then an interrupted dribble results in the ball rolling towards the half court line, a blue player runs up and reaches down and rolls the ball back into frontcourt, as he is making this "saving" roll he jumps across the halfcourt line but is clearly not touching the ball when he crosses the line, I did not call backcourt even though some of the fans were screaming overandback.
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