Wild and crazy night

[just another ref]

On the subject of cognizance, back in the old days I was not registered and just called locally, jr. high and below. You know, the games where everybody knows you and can use your first name when they insult you. I was actually advised by coaches and "real" officials that knowledge like this was a bad thing.
"Put it out of your mind." I think this is largely good advice, but many times is impossible to follow, especially when it involves the star player being in foul trouble. You hear it shouted from the rafters: "Take it to him! He's got four!"

[Daryl H. Long]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Game management. If it's 7-0, you know to expect the coach to be frustrated, and why. If there's a borderline (not a ticky foul, one you could go either way on) foul by the 0 team, you call it.

I don't. 7-0 never has a bearing on whether I pass or call what you describe as a borderline call.

Go read your officials manual:
2.6 Game Management/Awareness on page 43-44
3.6 Game Management/Awareness on page 80-81.

It includes being professional toward players and coaches, etc while making unbiased decisions (judgement based on rules knowledge).

Nowhere does it say to apply situational ethics to assuage a frustrated coach.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Daryl H. Long

Nowhere does it say to apply situational ethics to assuage a frustrated coach.

That's a little inflammatory. BITS isn't describing "situational ethics", in the sense that most philosophical and religious people would use the term. He's talking about minor adjustments in judgment. There's no way anyone isn't making little adjustments in judgment here and there, for various reasons. Don't call that situational ethics.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Explain what difference it makes if you do have a 7-0 foul count, please.

So you're ready for the coach's complaint?

[MCJB Ump]

Originally Posted by Daryl H. Long

Several questions:

Penn Coach said, "After I noticed it was 7-0, I was aware that it would probably be good to find one soon..." The response by several was that we NEVER should think it would be time to find one soon. Just call the game. And by the way he didn't say 7-0 was a surprise to him.

Q1. Why should I be cognizant of team fouls, if at all? Is there any good reason to have this information?

Q2. So, I am officiating like you said and cognizant of the team fouls. Your response about being cognizant says to me you are telling Penn Coach he should have started looking to find one on the other team earlier than he did. So, when should I start looking...2-0, 4-0?

I like to know when a team is close to the bonus situation. When a foul is called I'm more cognizant of who the shooter will be.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by A Pennsylvania Coach

The official responded with "And you did? You have the same angle as me! It is time for you to sit down and be quiet!" But no T.

Right here is where you should make a mental note that this official is someone you do NOT want to emulate!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Game management. If it's 7-0, you know to expect the coach to be frustrated, and why. If there's a borderline (not a ticky foul, one you could go either way on) foul by the 0 team, you call it.

Bull pucky, that's game management. Try calling it a lack of testicular fortitude instead, because that's exactly what it is. Advocating calling borderline fouls is ridiculous, unless you're also advocating calling similar borderline fouls for the whole game and against both teams. Your "game management" is being done with the sole purpose of trying to avoid having to deal with whiny coaches. And the fact that your "game management" is screwing the other team at the same time doesn't seem to bother you either.

Yeah right, game management......

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

That's a little inflammatory. BITS isn't describing "situational ethics", in the sense that most philosophical and religious people would use the term. He's talking about minor adjustments in judgment. There's no way anyone isn't making little adjustments in judgment here and there, for various reasons. Don't call that situational ethics.

I agree with Daryl. BITS isn't advocating a minor adjustment in judgment. He's advocating evening up the foul count. That's wrong. And very telling imo too.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

So you're ready for the coach's complaint?

The next time that I make any call while worrying if a coach is gonna complain about that call will be the first time.

And you might make one coach happy by evening up foul counts, but you're going to piss the other coach off while doing so. Are you ready for that coach's complaints?

I was taught to strive to be consistent and fair from the opening top to the final horn. Deliberately evening up foul counts flies in the face of that.

Jmo.

[illinoisbluezeb]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Are you serious? Whointhehell cares about foul counts? Our job is to call the fouls. Period. If it's 7-0, why penalize the team that's playing good defense by trying to invent something to call against them? Call it fairly, equally and evenly..... and t'hell with trying to even things up.

Officiate the game, not the foul count.

You go JR.

When a coach gets to TALKITIVE about fouls being 7-0, I tell him "That's all it is it should probably be more!!"

You can't say that to all coaches just some. I don't care about the fouls, call the game. Yes you will hear the about the difference but it's just a coach trying to manipulate you. Heck he probably agrees with you off the record if he is any coach worth his salt .

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by illinoisbluezeb

Yes you will hear the about the difference but it's just a coach trying to manipulate you.

Exactly, he's just advocating getting a few calls going his way. Calls that aren't really deserved. Nothing the matter with that. That's part of his job, I guess. There is a problem though imo if you let the coach talk you into searching for fouls against his opponent to even up the foul counts.

Call what happens. Call it fairly and evenly too.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The next time that I make any call while worrying if a coach is gonna complain about that call will be the first time.

And you might make one coach happy by evening up foul counts, but you're going to piss the other coach off while doing so. Are you ready for that coach's complaints?

I was taught to strive to be consistent and fair from the opening top to the final horn. Deliberately evening up foul counts flies in the face of that.

Jmo.

First of all, I was searching for a reason to be concerned with the foul count. Not so it can be "fixed" or manipulated, but so I can be prepared to respond to the coach's complaint.

Every time I've been concerned with a lopsided foul count, I stopped for a minute to make sure I wasn't missing something. I wasn't, any time. Sometimes, the fouls just fall that way and there's nothing you can or should do about it.

I had a coach one time answer his only question during his timeout rant about the foul count.

Coach: "The fouls are x to x."
Me:
Coach: "You can't tell me we're fouling that much more than they are."
Me:

After about 35 seconds of his timeout wasted without asking a single question, and therefore me not saying a word while looking him in the eyes; he told me I was giving him a dirty look and not to take that out on his girls. I told him he was reaching, and we were done.

I was the new guy, and he was just looking to see what he could pull. I learned something about myself: I'm not going to stand there for so much as 10 seconds next time without a question.

Live and learn.

[just another ref]

I recently called a GV game where the foul count near the end of the 1st quarter was 7-0. The interesting thing is that the score was tied 17-17.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by MCJB Ump

I like to know when a team is close to the bonus situation. When a foul is called I'm more cognizant of who the shooter will be.

Daryl agrees with what your are saying. We discussed this thread at dinner after our games tonight. We, as officials, should not be concerned about the foul disparity but should be aware of foul totals with regard to bonus situations.

This thread reminds me of the summer league game I once had. It was a boys' JV level game at when the first half was over the head coach of the team that was losing very badly told my partner and I that we had called 17 fouls on his team and only 5 on the opposing team. He wanted to know what he should tell his players. I told him to tell them to stop fouling.

MTD, Sr.

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

Damn, I rewrote that sentence a couple times because I was hoping it wouldn't be the only line in there that anyone wanted to talk about.

I wouldn't call anything that wasn't a foul a foul. But there are always some plays in the gray area. If I make a minor judgment adjustment in that situation, that means I'm ethically corrupt?