Wild and crazy night

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

The phrase "situational ethics" goes far beyond the decision whether or not to call some maybe-maybe-not-a-foul contact. It seems to me to be a very unfair basis on which to agree with BITS.

Whatintheheck else can you call it?

If you're changing your normal officiating standards to call some "maybe-maybe-not-a-foul-contact" fouls that you haven't called to date, and you're doing so because of a disparate foul count, then you're officiating to that particular situation.

Maybe BITS thinks that is good game management. I sureasheck don't.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by just another ref

And what do we do if we were cognizant earlier? What would we have done then?

Here's what you do.

I'm working a state semi-final game, 5 years ago at ECU's Minges Colesium. Team A is down 5 and the fouls are 4-0 in the opponent's favor entering the second quarter. I'm in the slot in front of Coach A.

"The fouls are 4-0 in their favor."

"I know, coach. They haven't fouled anyone yet."

"Good point."

If the fouls are out of balance, I'm not going hunting. But at the same time, I'm going to be aware so that I don't mistakenly pass on one that should be called.

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Whatintheheck else can you call it?

If you're changing your normal officiating standards to call some "maybe-maybe-not-a-foul-contact" fouls that you haven't called to date, and you're doing so because of a disparate foul count, then you're officiating to that particular situation.

Maybe BITS thinks that is good game management. I sureasheck don't.

Is there really nothing else in my original post worth commenting on?

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

If the fouls are out of balance, I'm not going hunting. But at the same time, I'm going to be aware so that I don't mistakenly pass on one that should be called.

I couldn't have said it better!! That's all I was really saying... nothing about attempting to even it up or fixing the count, just being aware for:

1. bonus purposes
2. ready with a response for the coaches complaints (NOT FIXING BECAUSE HE IS WHINNING)
3. I thought knowing the particulars (foul count NOT disparity, AP arrow, when 1 TO is remaining) were part of good game management.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

If the fouls are out of balance, I'm not going hunting. But at the same time, I'm going to be aware so that I don't mistakenly pass on one that should be called.

Exactly. Know the foul count. If the count is lopsided understand why. If it's something the crew needs to adjust in terms of consistency then do so. If not keep blowing the whistle and don't apologize for it.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

If the fouls are out of balance, I'm not going hunting. But at the same time, I'm going to be aware so that I don't mistakenly pass on one that should be called.

It's nice to know that you and Dan_ref agree with me. Here's what I said on page 3:

However, if the team fouls are lopsided, I'm not going to make anything up on the team that has fewer fouls -- but I'm not going to miss any, either. I'm going to make sure that I don't have any errors of omission that favor the team with fewer fouls.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

And what do we do if we were cognizant earlier? What would we have done then?

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Here's what you do.

I'm working a state semi-final game, 5 years ago at ECU's Minges Colesium. Team A is down 5 and the fouls are 4-0 in the opponent's favor entering the second quarter. I'm in the slot in front of Coach A.

"The fouls are 4-0 in their favor."

"I know, coach. They haven't fouled anyone yet."

"Good point."

If the fouls are out of balance, I'm not going hunting. But at the same time, I'm going to be aware so that I don't mistakenly pass on one that should be called.

Be aware of what? I would assume that you are always trying not to mistakenly pass on anything that should be called. I considered my question above to be rhetorical.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Be aware of what?

Be aware of the foul count and if there's a lopsided count be satisfied that the crew is being consistent and there's a good reason for the lopsided foul count. If you think there isn't a good reason then adjust.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Be aware of the foul count and if there's a lopsided count be satisfied that the crew is being consistent and there's a good reason for the lopsided foul count. If you think there isn't a good reason then adjust.

Agree....At the very least, you should mentally review the calls made to satisfy yourself that you're calling the same plays the same way for each team and, going forward, that you call a foul on the team with no fouls when they do something similar to the fouls you have already called.

[Mark Padgett]

Guys - what is so friggin difficult? If you and your partner(s) are calling the game the same for both sides, then the foul count is totally irrelevant to how you are going to call the next one, or the next, or the next, etc. - all the way until the end of the game. If you're calling it properly and there is a foul count "disparity", it just means one team is playing proper defense and the other team isn't. That's not your problem. You don't commit fouls, you just point them out to everyone when they occur. If you start calling it differently for one of the teams, or both of the teams due to the foul count, you are not doing your job properly. Period.

Denny Crane.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Be aware of the foul count and if there's a lopsided count be satisfied that the crew is being consistent and there's a good reason for the lopsided foul count. If you think there isn't a good reason then adjust.

Adjust what? If you started the game doing your best to call it straight up, what can you do differently? If the foul count is 5-0 and you feel like you kicked 4 of the calls, there still is no adjustment to be made. You simply try not to kick any more calls. I agree with Padgett. Gee, that's scary when you say it out loud.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I agree with Padgett. Gee, that's scary when you say it out loud.

So just type silently.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Be aware of what? I would assume that you are always trying not to mistakenly pass on anything that should be called. I considered my question above to be rhetorical.

My story was in reply to your question.

My comment at the end was my opinion of the entire topic and had nothing to do with your question.

Originally Posted by just another ref

Adjust what? If you started the game doing your best to call it straight up, what can you do differently? If the foul count is 5-0 and you feel like you kicked 4 of the calls, there still is no adjustment to be made. You simply try not to kick any more calls.

So you every call you've ever made has been perfect? You've never had to consider whether you were being consistent or not? You've never worked a game where you weren't at your best? You've never been a situation where you need to make adjustments to what you were doing? If so, congratulations! You're the first perfect official to ever work a game.

Myself? If Dan, Camron, and Chuck have the same philosophy I do concerning this, I believe I'll be able to sleep soundly tonight.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

So you every call you've ever made has been perfect? You've never had to consider whether you were being consistent or not? You've never worked a game where you weren't at your best? You've never been a situation where you need to make adjustments to what you were doing?

Every call perfect? no
Consistency considered? yes
A game not at the best? often
Need to make adjustments? sometimes

My point was that none of the above is directly and proportionately related to the foul count. Adjustments that you may need to make might make the foul count even worse.

Picture this. Had a game a couple of years ago in our 9-10 league. There was a 10 year old kid who was a real stud in the post playing on 8 1/2 foot goals. Other team ran 2 or 3 at him every time he caught it in there, but had little success stopping him. This is a game with 5 minute quarters and a running clock and 2 or 3 guys fouled out. Yet, somehow, the game still managed to end in a tie. The big kid's coach complained later that we didn't call enough fouls. He said that there should have been several multiple fouls called. This is a guy coaching his 9 year old son who had formerly coached at every level up to small college. I asked how many multiples he had seen called at any level. No answer.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I agree with Padgett. Gee, that's scary when you say it out loud.

Originally Posted by mbyron

So just type silently.

Yeah, but for those who can't read silently, that could be a problem.