Crazy Night

[CDcoach]

Well I umped two games last night first game i was PU...no problems...had the first HR of the season on that field. But then the second game I was BU and the game was pretty wild.

The PU more than likely made a couple mistakes and it made coaches mad...it was a new kid and he had a hard time standing up for himself so I had to help him through it and ended up being the bad guy for his bad calls. Basically the call in question...2-2 count kid hits it straight down and from my view it hits the plate and goes fair...out at first inning over...however coaches complain to me that it hit his foot, foul ball. I explain my view to the manager and PU lost his view with a popping catcher. So then the third base coach gets in my face and yells "Make the decision!" I probably would have tossed him for that had I not known that they were probably right and we probably blew the call. I said "I've made my decision talk to your manager". I tellt he manager that he is to be responsible for communications between me and the team and that his team had a warning. Manager is a real calm level headed guy and he understood. Game goes on with people questioning every ball and strike my PU called. After the game kids are shaking hands and he approaches us again and says..."I wasn't trying to come off as a jerk earlier but him and his cocky a$$ attitude." (Reminder:I didn't say a word until he was yelling 6" from my face). Then he says he's gonna put on a f***ing umpire clinic and make a fortune. I tell him that he is ejected and may not attend thier next played game. It goes on and on but in the end security was there and he is not attending anymore of his games at the park this year because he was not sober.

My question...should I have thrown him out at the first yelling in my face to prevent this...or what could I have done to prevent this? After thinking I think I probably should have thrown him for being intoxicated...I wasn't sure but he acted like he was pretty gone. Just needed your opinion on how you handle it when you think there might of been a blown call....how far do you let the coaches go?

[jicecone]

First of all why are you hanging around after the game is over? Were you responsible for the handshake. Get out of there. I've seen too many officials that go out of there way to make sure everyone shakes there hand and tell them if they did a good job or not. A sure sign of insecurity.

Then if your leaving the field, the coach has to chase you down. I say, "Have a good day sir". He keeps chasing me, I report him to my assignor, who in turn reports him to the league. At some point if it gets out of hand, you call security an let them handle it. As you did. Also make sure you leave WITH your partner.

Staying on that field, can be taken as your willingness to be confrontational. Especially if you know this coach has it in for you. This could considered , "baiting the coach".
Get out there.

If you ever feel that the base coach is intoxicated, GET THE MANAGER to handle the situation. Tell him to either replace his coach or the game will be halted until security arrives. To try and reason with an intoxicated person, is almost impossible. Get the manager to do your dirty work.

This also works a lot better if you have no way to prove that the coach is indeed intoxicated. It is not uncommon for someone to have a beer or two before a game. Be cautious about making accusations, but be safe.

[chris s]

Originally posted by CDcoach
Well I umped two games last night first game i was PU...no problems...had the first HR of the season on that field. But then the second game I was BU and the game was pretty wild.

The PU more than likely made a couple mistakes and it made coaches mad...it was a new kid and he had a hard time standing up for himself so I had to help him through it and ended up being the bad guy for his bad calls. Basically the call in question...2-2 count kid hits it straight down and from my view it hits the plate and goes fair...out at first inning over...however coaches complain to me that it hit his foot, foul ball. I explain my view to the manager and PU lost his view with a popping catcher. So then the third base coach gets in my face and yells "Make the decision!" I probably would have tossed him for that had I not known that they were probably right and we probably blew the call. I said "I've made my decision talk to your manager". I tellt he manager that he is to be responsible for communications between me and the team and that his team had a warning. Manager is a real calm level headed guy and he understood. Game goes on with people questioning every ball and strike my PU called. After the game kids are shaking hands and he approaches us again and says..."I wasn't trying to come off as a jerk earlier but him and his cocky a$$ attitude." (Reminder:I didn't say a word until he was yelling 6" from my face). Then he says he's gonna put on a f***ing umpire clinic and make a fortune. I tell him that he is ejected and may not attend thier next played game. It goes on and on but in the end security was there and he is not attending anymore of his games at the park this year because he was not sober.

My question...should I have thrown him out at the first yelling in my face to prevent this...or what could I have done to prevent this? After thinking I think I probably should have thrown him for being intoxicated...I wasn't sure but he acted like he was pretty gone. Just needed your opinion on how you handle it when you think there might of been a blown call....how far do you let the coaches go?

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!1
Has no place whatsoever at a youth baseball game PERIOD!!!
I would have dumped him after the first incident, mainly cuz at my plate meetings I explain to the managers that they are the team liason, we will be happy to explain a rules interp, but judgement calls will not be discussed. AND,any coaches other than manager jumps on us, he will be sent packing PERIOD.
My very first season(10 years ago), I show up for a 9-10 game, one asst. coach had alcohol on his breath(this was the casual "hey coach, how's it goin?") I then told him to leave, now. Told the skipper what was up and reported it to the league, he was banned for a year. I have kids that play now, I DO NOT expect or tolerate any alcohol on or around the fields.......BTW, check out my "Todays Drunk" post from Mothers Day down below......

[CDcoach]

jicecone,
In our league we are responsible to make sure handshakes are clean...due to the fact that we've had punches thrown at it and with umpires standing there it tends to scare them away from something like that.

"If you ever feel that the base coach is intoxicated, GET THE MANAGER to handle the situation. Tell him to either replace his coach or the game will be halted until security arrives. To try and reason with an intoxicated person, is almost impossible. Get the manager to do your dirty work."

That's a good point because the reason I didn't say anything about him being drunk was I was worried that would start an argument.

Thanks for the response.

[GarthB]

Clint:

1. Don't talk to managers about your partner's calls.

2. Don't hang around the field after the game. You say you have to make sure hand shakes are "clean"...That can be done from a distance far enough away that coaches can't casually speak to you. Besides, you're not a cop. If a fight breaks out you are basically a witness, not a referee.

3. You can eject coaches, but the punishment is not yours to decide or to announce. Let the BOD or commissioners or whoever do that. You toss, the others will let him know what the consequences are.

4. I'm not sure I understand what you were doing when the coach yelled "make a decision." Why were you making a decision about your partner's call? Did he (your partner) come to you? If not, you've got no business getting involved unless you saw the ball hit the player and called it right away. If you sat on the call, then eat it unless your partner comes to you. Even then, you have some explaining to do to your parnter for not making the call at the appropriate time.

5. The assistant coach should have been tossed very early on. Head coaches have some rights, assistants have none.

[CDcoach]

Originally posted by GarthB
Clint:

1. Don't talk to managers about your partner's calls.

2. Don't hang around the field after the game. You say you have to make sure hand shakes are "clean"...That can be done from a distance far enough away that coaches can't casually speak to you. Besides, you're not a cop. If a fight breaks out you are basically a witness, not a referee.

3. You can eject coaches, but the punishment is not yours to decide or to announce. Let the BOD or commissioners or whoever do that. You toss, the others will let him know what the consequences are.

4. I'm not sure I understand what you were doing when the coach yelled "make a decision." Why were you making a decision about your partner's call? Did he (your partner) come to you? If not, you've got no business getting involved unless you saw the ball hit the player and called it right away. If you sat on the call, then eat it unless your partner comes to you. Even then, you have some explaining to do to your parnter for not making the call at the appropriate time.

5. The assistant coach should have been tossed very early on. Head coaches have some rights, assistants have none.

1. Like I said my partner is a young kid and with everyone yelling he really just wanted to hide. So I asked him what he saw and passed it on to the manager to queist things down...normally I know this wouldn't be done.

2. Good point...I'll give that a try.

3. Ok but the manager asked me what good it was doing me to eject him so just going by league rulebook that's what would happen...BOD doesn't get together unless it is the coaches second ejection of the year.

4.No I called the kid out at first and they appealed to me asking if it hit the kids foot therefore fould I said it hit the plate. I certainly wasn't going to change that kind of a call from the field.

5. Thanks again.

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by CDcoach

After thinking I think I probably should have thrown him for being intoxicated...I wasn't sure but he acted like he was pretty gone. Just needed your opinion on how you handle it when you think there might of been a blown call....how far do you let the coaches go?

Garth et al have given you some good pointers but I would like to concentrate on your statement concerning the coach being intoxicated.

This is not a thinking matter. Either he was or wasn't intoxicated. If he was intoxicated he has no business being on the field. Heck even when I'm not umpiring and simply go to my son's / daughter's LL game (just to be a Dad) I wait until I get home if I want a cold one or glass of wine with dinner. NEVER on the field.

Did you have a coaches conference at the plate at the beginning of the game? If the coach was intoxicated you should have noticed it right then and there and not even waited until the end of the game.

As Garth mentioned we do not hand out punishments but we CAN write a letter to the League President etc. expressing our concerns. I'm certain that the parents of this team would want to know if someone coaching their child is intoxicated or not.

Only bad things can happen when someone is allowed to particpate while being intoxicated.

Pete Booth

[JimSmith]

I'd consider talking to the BOD about watching the hand shakes after the game. If they determine there is a possibility for problems then they should either have police assistance or do away with the post-game festivities. I think both of those options are a little out there for some leagues, but as somebody has already mentioned, what happens if a brawl breaks out?

You aren't going to get in the middle of it. You are no different than Joey's grandmother who drove in from Miami to see the game - just another set of eyes.

Could it deter problems? Yes, but I believe the reality is that it will have an overall negative impact with the heat you take leaving the field.

Always exit via the winners dugout (or perhaps the losers if the winners want to have a word with you).

After a game is over you are no different than that coach, just a guy. He wouldn't walk into your living room yelling at you like that. Don't hang around, go home.

One final note: Managers whose job depends on the game gets slack, not volunteer coaches. Sure they want to act like it's for all of the marbles, but until their families face the idea of moving to another town because of a bad season, I won't give them the same length of rope that a high school or college coach gets.

[CDcoach]

"Did you have a coaches conference at the plate at the beginning of the game? If the coach was intoxicated you should have noticed it right then and there and not even waited until the end of the game."

We have a manager's meeting...go over big points with the two managers...so really I never met him until the point where he was irritated. Should I reccomend that all their coaches come out to the meeting? I would think that was overdoing it a little...but I can see what it could have prevented there.

[CDcoach]

Just to follow-up...the UIC tried talking to the guy I ejected and the guy went nuts on him too. The guy tried to come back for his next game...and he was removed by security...but that's not even close to how bad this guy got.

After he was kicked out by security he came back in a black wig that had hair down to his waist and he was riding a 8 year olds bike. Dead serious. I was on the other end of the park umpiring so did not get to see the comedy of it all. I heard it was pretty funny though. I'm almost a celebrity at the park now..."Hey ur the ump that ejected that guy in the wig". HAHA

I now feel a lot more justified in removing the guy.

[IHSAIllini]

You thought youth league baseball was getting bad; I just hope I don't have to start carrying a breathalyzer.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Prove it!

I'm concerned about some of the comments made here and perhaps it warrants more discussion.

As umpires we make a lot of timing and location type judgements.... level of intoxication isn't one of them. What's the intoxication limit? Is it zero? How do I prove that a coach is beyond the limit?

He had three beers with his lunch four hours ago. Can I kick him out? Was his drinking inappropriate behavior?

I agree with the comments that have been made about our intolerance - alcohol should not be allowed around the children being coached. There are rules forbidding the use of tobacco within view of the players. I would assume that the use of alcohol (and other drugs) within view of the players should also be forbidden. BUT HOW DO I PROVE THAT A COACH IS INTOXICATED?

If I punish him for what I feel is unacceptable intoxication, am I now liable for the repercussions that he will face because I accused him of intoxication? (Especially if my accusation is incorrect.)

I haven't ran into this situation with a coach. And I'm not sure that I can enforce any kind of a penalty based upon my assumption that he is drunk. Maybe he is just on medication that causes his stupor. Maybe he had a beer before the game. Perhaps some angered parent threw their beer at him on his way into the ballpark. Perhaps he has been on an all day bender at the golf course. I don't know. And I can't prove it. My accusation of intoxication is a serious, perhaps life altering, judgement that I don't have enough information to make.

I can eject for unsporting behavior but I would not for an 'assumed' intoxication. The best I think I could do for a coach that I felt was intoxicated is to pull him aside and in private say something along the lines of "Coach, I don't mean any personal offense, but you appear to be intoxicated. And if you are, do you think it is appropriate for you to be here coaching children? Is there anyone else that can coach for you today so you can come back for another game, later?"

I would be cautious, Tony

[BadAxe]

I've seen numerous mentions in this thread about Umps leaving the filed before the handshakes. Is this normal everywhere else than anywhere my son has EVER played?

Umpires from T-ball up have remained on the field thruout the handshakes in my area, and we teach ALL our kids to NEVER forget to shake the umps hand after the players. I would be offended if the umps were walking away before our players got to show respect to the umps for a game well called.

[jicecone]

"I would be offended if the umps were walking away before our players got to show respect to the umps for a game well called."

Hey BadAxe don't be offended, I have officiated games where coaches and players feel that they can abuse you the entire game and a little hand shake at the end will all of a sudden show you respect. NOT TRUE.

SHOWING RESPECT during the entire game means much more to me than all of a sudden lining up at the end, (because tradition says so) and shaking my hand.

In most leagues above LL, immediately leaving the field is accepted and encouraged by officiating organizations. Mostly because the bad situations have outweighted the good intentions and sportsmanship that should be exhibited after the game.

Example: I also officiate Ice Hockey. It is required that the officials stay on the ice until all players leave the ice. Why? Not to receive congratulations, but to report and/or penanlize infractions that may occurr after the game.

This is probably a direct result of the bad that has ruined the good intentions of each sport. So don't be offended, this is today's world.

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by BadAxe

I've seen numerous mentions in this thread about Umps leaving the filed before the handshakes. Is this normal everywhere else than anywhere my son has EVER played?

Umpires from T-ball up have remained on the field thruout the handshakes in my area, and we teach ALL our kids to NEVER forget to shake the umps hand after the players. I would be offended if the umps were walking away before our players got to show respect to the umps for a game well called.

Maybe and I say maybe in Youth ball, but at all the clinics even the LL clinics, they teach the umpires to LEAVE the field, exit the winning team side if you have to exit through the ballpark as SOON as the GAME is over.

What's the purpose of hanging around to watch the players shake hands? Suppose the game ended on a controversial call or a bang bang call etc. My advice Get out of Dodge The game is for the players NOT US so I do not see the point in hanging around.

Greet your partner and head for the exits.

Pete Booth