Coach talking trash!!

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Unless you're willing to make the same flagrant call on one of the players for the same thing, I don't think you can really justify it on the coach.

In this particular case I think I agree with your conclusion, that this is at most borderline flagrant.

However, I'm not sure I agree with your premise: do you really not hold the coaches to a higher standard, since they're (legally) adults?

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by mbyron

In this particular case I think I agree with your conclusion, that this is at most borderline flagrant.

However, I'm not sure I agree with your premise: do you really not hold the coaches to a higher standard, since they're (legally) adults?

Generally speaking, I hold players and coaches to the same standard: the rules of the game. There is nothing about trash talking that makes it worse for an adult to do than a child. And in the cases of both children and adults I prefer to apply the minimum penalty for a behavior issue that will solve the problem.

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Generally speaking, I hold players and coaches to the same standard: the rules of the game. There is nothing about trash talking that makes it worse for an adult to do than a child. And in the cases of both children and adults I prefer to apply the minimum penalty for a behavior issue that will solve the problem.

BITS, I as well disagree with your premise. The distinction isn’t between an adult and child, but the coach and the player. I believe we as officials should hold the coach to a higher standard. It’s his job to master the rules as well as coach his players. The coach has more influence on his players then his players may have on their teammates. If I want the coach to set an example for his players, then I am going to make an example out of the coach. If not, then I’ve just advocated the coach’s behavior and the players will follow suit because all they’ll get is a “T” and 1 towards their foul count. Then you have a bunch of unruly, unsporting participants in your game which could turn your game ugly real quick. JMO.

[jdw3018]

I see no problem in holding a coach to a different standard when it comes to talking to opposing players. Players are emotionally involved in the game with peers. Now and then, in this day and age, there's going to be some comments, and I have no problem warning a player before whacking them if it's not out of hand.

A coach, on the other hand, has absolutely no business at all interacting with players from the opposing team in any way, shape, or form. I'm not saying I'd definitely give a flagrant in this situation, just that I'd give a flagrant to a coach for this type of behavior before I'd give one to another player.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

I believe we as officials should hold the coach to a higher standard.

And your rules support for this?

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

Players are emotionally involved in the game with peers. Now and then, in this day and age, there's going to be some comments,

And coaches are NOT emotionally involved?!?! They are also competing with their peers. Should they be jawing with players? Obviously not, but neither should the players.

A coach, on the other hand, has absolutely no business at all interacting with players from the opposing team in any way, shape, or form.

Players have no business taunting opponents either. Why different penalties for the same offense?

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

And coaches are NOT emotionally involved?!?! They are also competing with their peers. Should they be jawing with players? Obviously not, but neither should the players.

Players have no business taunting opponents either. Why different penalties for the same offense?

We may disagree on this, but I've seen numerous cases of players having a bit of fun talking to each other. If I can get this ended without a technical foul, I'm going to do so.

A coach is emotionally involved with the game as a coach - not as a peer to the players as I said in my previous post. That's why there is a difference.

[Junker]

I'd call the technical and then make sure that the AD knows what the coach was doing. After that, it is up to them and possibly the next crew that has the team to take care of it. I would have a hard time calling this flagrant.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

A coach is emotionally involved with the game as a coach - not as a peer to the players as I said in my previous post. That's why there is a difference.

But he is absolutely competing with his peer on the other bench. It's difficult to jaw with the opposing coach, but if a player is standing right in front of your bench and giving crap to one of your own players, it would be very easy to say something to that player.

Again, should he speak to the player? Obviously not. But I see no reason to consider it more grievous than a player taunting a player or a coach taunting a coach. It's taunting. Deal with it for what it is, by the rules. We shouldn't insert our own "morality" into the situation, IMHO.

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

And your rules support for this?

It's in the rulebook, but not in the rules section. Read the Coaches Code of Ethics. That's the standard that I will hold them to and enforce the rules by.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

It's in the rulebook, but not in the rules section. Read the Coaches Code of Ethics. That's the standard that I will hold them to and enforce the rules by.

Bad idea. Are you going to issue the coach a flagrant technical foul for not mastering the rules or for not teaching them to his/her players? Are you going to issue a flagrant technical foul for not exerting his influence when the spectators show bad sportsmanship? Are you going to issue a flagrant technical when the coach is not working closely with the cheerleaders?

Those are all things that are part of the coaches' code of ethics. If you're not going to give a flagrant T for all of them, why would you give a flagrant T for yelling at an opposing player?

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

But he is absolutely competing with his peer on the other bench. It's difficult to jaw with the opposing coach, but if a player is standing right in front of your bench and giving crap to one of your own players, it would be very easy to say something to that player.

Again, should he speak to the player? Obviously not. But I see no reason to consider it more grievous than a player taunting a player or a coach taunting a coach. It's taunting. Deal with it for what it is, by the rules. We shouldn't insert our own "morality" into the situation, IMHO.

Hmm. Interesting points. I think the coach should be held to a higher standard, but I'm not sure I have any rules reference for that. But I also don't think it's just "my morality". Have to figure out how to make that play out in practice.

But the OP seems flagrant to me not because it's a coach, but because of the words said. I'd call it flagrant if a player said it, too. It's the threatening and personal nature of it that seems really over the top to me. It's not just team-on-team name-calling or taunting, it's viciously and destructively aimed at a specific person. Really, really not acceptable on any level.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

But he is absolutely competing with his peer on the other bench.

That has nothing to do with this scenario.

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

if a player is standing right in front of your bench and giving crap to one of your own players, it would be very easy to say something to that player.

And absolutely inappropriate (we agree on this, I know), regardless of what was being said by the player. The only thing the coach should do in this instance is attempt to draw the officials' attention to the problem.

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I see no reason to consider it more grievous than a player taunting a player or a coach taunting a coach. It's taunting. Deal with it for what it is, by the rules. We shouldn't insert our own "morality" into the situation, IMHO.

This has nothing to do with morality and everything to do with appropriate adult behavior as defined by the NFHS and our education system.

If a kid in the hallway during school punches another kid, he gets suspended. If a teacher punches a kid, he gets fired. To me, it's the same principle on the basketball court.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

That has nothing to do with this scenario.


And absolutely inappropriate (we agree on this, I know), regardless of what was being said by the player. The only thing the coach should do in this instance is attempt to draw the officials' attention to the problem.


This has nothing to do with morality and everything to do with appropriate adult behavior as defined by the NFHS and our education system.

If a kid in the hallway during school punches another kid, he gets suspended. If a teacher punches a kid, he gets fired. To me, it's the same principle on the basketball court.

Really? Just suspended? I don't think so. But even so, your point is well taken. Teacher punches kid, he'll never teach again whereas the kid could probably get into another school somewhere.

But the principle is good, and even more true as the age of the players goes lower. In college, the OP is bad. In hs JV it's worse. At the jh level, it's almost a firing offense, seems to me. Disparity in the ages between the coach and the player makes some difference in my thinking.

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Bad idea. Are you going to issue the coach a flagrant technical foul for not mastering the rules or for not teaching them to his/her players? Are you going to issue a flagrant technical foul for not exerting his influence when the spectators show bad sportsmanship? Are you going to issue a flagrant technical when the coach is not working closely with the cheerleaders?

Those are all things that are part of the coaches' code of ethics. If you're not going to give a flagrant T for all of them, why would you give a flagrant T for yelling at an opposing player?

Scrapper, I never said I was going to give a flagrant in the OP. I was just disagreeing with BITS premise that we treat the coach and the player in the same manner.