Oh Boy! we have a mess!

[Ron Pilo]

Tie game at 51. A1 shooting a 1 and 1 with 4.1 left. B1 that fouled has 5 and scorers table is trying to get the officials attention (without the horn), the officials don't hear it and the free throw takes place. A1 misses but scorers table doesn't start the clock (as they are still trying to get the officials attention for the fifth foul). The ball is tipped to A2 who pump fakes and goes back up and scores. Then Officials realize there is a problem.

What do you do?

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Ron Pilo

Tie game at 51. A1 shooting a 1 and 1 with 4.1 left. B1 that fouled has 5 and scorers table is trying to get the officials attention (without the horn), the officials don't hear it and the free throw takes place. A1 misses but scorers table doesn't start the clock (as they are still trying to get the officials attention for the fifth foul). The ball is tipped to A2 who pump fakes and goes back up and scores. Then Officials realize there is a problem.

What do you do?

Did the B players make any attempt to rebound? (Stalling for time while I think it all over...)

[Ron Pilo]

Rainmaker,
All players were aware of the Free-throws and made an attempt to rebound.

[jdw3018]

Unless you have definite knowledge of how much time should have come off the clock, you count the goal, notify B coach and B1 that he has 5 and has to be replaced, and you put the ball in play w/ B inbounding under the basket with the ability to run the endline and 4.1 on the clock.

If for some reason an official had a count on, you can subtract as many seconds as he counted if he counted until the error was recognized.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Ron Pilo

Tie game at 51. A1 shooting a 1 and 1 with 4.1 left. B1 that fouled has 5 and scorers table is trying to get the officials attention (without the horn), the officials don't hear it and the free throw takes place. A1 misses but scorers table doesn't start the clock (as they are still trying to get the officials attention for the fifth foul). The ball is tipped to A2 who pump fakes and goes back up and scores. Then Officials realize there is a problem.

What do you do?

Unless an official has definite knowledge how much time should have come off, the score definitely counts.

If an official does know how much time should have come off, then that definite knowledge can be used to take time off the clock. It can be used to determine if the score counts or not.

Edit: replace the fouled out player and continue with B's throw-in.

Remind the table to tell the official when a player has their 4th foul. This means that a player with 3 fouls needs to be of importance to the table.

[hbioteach]

I agree but you have definite knowledge that time should come off the clock. Put 3.8 on the clock. A minimum of 0.3 was needed to shoot.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by hbioteach

I agree but you have definite knowledge that time should come off the clock. Put 3.8 on the clock. A minimum of 0.3 was needed to shoot.

I don't believe the 0.3 required for a shot can be used. What I'm not certain about is if an official had a count of 2 for closely guarded and then the shot went up, obviously taking more time, could they take 2 seconds off?

I've always been under the impression that an official must know the entire duration to have definite knowledge and make any change, but I can't find a citation that the official must have definite knowledge of the entire period of time consumed...

[inigo montoya]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

I don't believe the 0.3 required for a shot can be used. What I'm not certain about is if an official had a count of 2 for closely guarded and then the shot went up, obviously taking more time, could they take 2 seconds off?

I've always been under the impression that an official must know the entire duration to have definite knowledge and make any change, but I can't find a citation that the official must have definite knowledge of the entire period of time consumed...

According to a senior official running a training scrimmage this offseason, you can take off whatever time that you have definite knowledge of, even if it's only part of the interval. So if you have a throw-in in A's backcourt and A dribbles up the court, crosses midcourt, and takes a shot and the clock fails to start, you may use the backcourt count to take off fewer than 10 seconds.

I believe that 0.3 can be taken off but I've never faced that situation in a game and am not dogmatic on the point. To me, it constitutes definite knowledge by rule, but others see it differently.

[Ignats75]

definite knowledge

Thats the important info. It must be definite knowledge. the NFHS does not allow for estimating. It must be definite knowledge.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by inigo montoya

I believe that 0.3 can be taken off but I've never faced that situation in a game and am not dogmatic on the point. To me, it constitutes definite knowledge by rule, but others see it differently.

I disagree.

The rule states that a shot following an inbounds pass/jump ball/FT rebound cannot score with 0.3 or less on the clock. It does NOT state that every shot must run at least 0.3 off of the clock (unless you're playing NBA rules).

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

I've always been under the impression that an official must know the entire duration to have definite knowledge and make any change, but I can't find a citation that the official must have definite knowledge of the entire period of time consumed...

That's been a long debated point and there has been no definitive ruling on it. I've made some arguments for taking off whatever counts you do have as you definitely know that much but no more. Other say you must have more than definite knowledge but must have complete knowledge.

[Coltdoggs]

A couple years ago in our 8th grade rec league tourney...we had a ref call the game over when the the clock operator didn't start the clock. IIRC the sitch, there was like 8 seconds left...ball came in from endline...offense advanced it against pressure got it in the FC, made two FC passes and a shot went up and in that resulted in a 1 point win

Just one problem......Ref was blew the play dead saying "no shot, game is over"....Still 8 seconds on the clock! Everyone in the gym was

He said while he didn't have a visible count on bringing the ball up from BC to FC...he was counting in his head and there was no way two passes and a shot could have happened because they used 8 seconds to get the ball into FC....It was a mess that only he knows what happened...

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

That's been a long debated point and there has been no definitive ruling on it. I've made some arguments for taking off whatever counts you do have as you definitely know that much but no more. Other say you must have more than definite knowledge but must have complete knowledge.

Thanks for that response - that's what I figured as I'd searched a couple threads here and looked at any resources I could find and couldn't find anything definitive other than peoples' opinions.

Would be nice to get a clarification on this from the NFHS at some point...

[Stat-Man]

Originally Posted by hbioteach

I agree but you have definite knowledge that time should come off the clock. Put 3.8 on the clock. A minimum of 0.3 was needed to shoot.

As far as I know, this is only true for NBA rulesets.

[ChrisSportsFan]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Remind the table to tell the official when a player has their 4th foul. This means that a player with 3 fouls needs to be of importance to the table.

Why do you want to know when a player has 4 fouls?