How about this mess!

[Buckeye12]

With one out and runners on 1B and 2B, the pitcher attempts a pickoff to second base and the runner takes off to 3B and is in a rundown. R1 runs to 2B while R2 is in the run down. R2, on his way back to second, sees that R1 has occupied 2B and in dismay, touches 2B, over runs it towards center field pretty much giving up. R1, seeing this, takes off to 3B and the throw from F4 goes out of play.

Here's my questions. Did R1 pass a preceding runner? What happened first: R2 abandoned his effort / R1 passed a preceding runner. How many outs should be called? What is the proper awarded bases (if any)?


*This play has been sent the the Ohio High School Athletic Association for a ruling.

[Bfair]

R2 out for leaving his basepath, not abandonment, allows play to continue with R1 proceeding.


Just my opinion,

Freix

[BJ Moose]

Brother Steve.. I would think leaving the basepath IS abandonment... there is no "leaving the basebath" penalty is there (I mean, without the abandonment part).

But to the PLAY.. my first thought was that once R2 touched 2nd and went PAST (toward CF or 1st it don't matter).. then I am calling R1 out for PASSING the runner. (Neat, passing while standing still).

THEN.. I'm gonna decide about the guy running toward CF... based on the verbage of the play.. I'm gonna call TWO outs! Of course, you had to be there.

[woolnojg]

Runner from 1st did NOT pass a preceding runner.
Runner from 2nd: a) abandoned his effort to advance after crossing 2nd
b) commited a travesty of the game by retouching 2nd and leaving

What happened first? R2 is out for one of the above.
How many outs? 1 on R2.
What bases are awarded? R1 is granted 1 extra base from 3rd for the throw leaving the field of play.

[stumpire]

When R2 retouched 2nd base and went beyond he actually placed himself in a position between first and second. (So to speak.) If R1 were not standing on 2nd base, R2 would need to retouch 2nd base to advance to 3rd. (For example, if the ball were thrown into the outfield.) Because R1 is standing on 2nd, he is out for passing R2. R1 is out because he is more than 3 feet from his base path when the defense is making a play on him. I go with BJ. Two outs, an ejection probably, and a beating in the local newspaper.

[Bfair]

Originally posted by BJ Moose
Brother Steve.. I would think leaving the basepath IS abandonment... there is no "leaving the basebath" penalty is there (I mean, without the abandonment part).

Moose, abandonment is when a player is not being played upon. Most take a little longer time to judge that, and perhaps may not call it as quickly for a player headed back behind 2B. Since he was being played upon, he has a limited territory to run, and once he leaves that territory he can immediately be declared out. That prevents the need for addressing R1 passing R2, is in-line with applying the rules, and keeps your butt out of the ringer in calling 2 outs for a play destined for but one out.

There is a difference, and that's in the timing.


Freix

[woolnojg]

Stump -
The direction indicated in the originalpost is the leading runner retreated to 2nd and then continued to the outfield. At no point does it indicate he turned towards first. If he had then you have him for travesty of the game(running the bases backwards) and can declare him out prior to his passing the trail runner. It is possible for more than one runner to be on a base at the same time without anyone being out. See Brooklyn Dodgers, 1953. It is only when a play is made that outs occur. There is only one legal occupant of a base when more than one is present.

[snrmike]

...I'm sure glad I didn't hafta see anything like this during the last 10 years.

I agree with Bfair. The R1 should be called out for passing R2. It takes a while to make the "abandonment call" and the runners have to be aware of game situations. Of course, we weren't there and it's hard to make any judgements sight unseen. Those calls are tough to sort out and I'm sure your coaches were over it by the end of the game - no?

[Bfair]

Originally posted by snrmike

I agree with Bfair. The R1 should be called out for passing R2.

I don't believe you read my posts close enough.
I didn't say that............


Freix

[snrmike]

I still agree with your assessment of the situation.

[Patrick Szalapski]

I also have two outs on this play ONLY IF R2 ran more than three feet past second base WHILE ATTEMPTING TO AVOID a tag, and this happened after R1 reached second. In this case, R1 is first out for passing R2; then, R2 is out for later leaving the basepath while attempting to avoid a tag.

If R2 is out before R1 reaches second, I will give R1 the benefit of the doubt that he didn't pass R2 before he was out; rather, R2 was at worst "at and to the side" of R1.

P-Sz

[nine01c]

Running 3 feet (left or right) out of the baseline to avoid a tag only applies between bases 7.08(a).

In this play, R2 has abandoned his effort to remain a baserunner by showing he has no intent to reassert his status as a runner (isn't trying to get back to 2B). He is out. R1 is awarded home on the overthrow out of play.

Well, that's the pro interpretation according to Jaska/Roder.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

This is a creative play and requires an equally creative call. What day of the week was it? From what direction was the wind blowing? What color of socks was F4 wearing... and R1? Had the offensive coach ever been to Minnesota?

In seriousness, there was surely some body language associated with R1 going back beyond 2nd into center field. Perhaps abandonment is the correct call - right then. This allows R2 to legally attempt an advance to 3rd. Throw into dead ball territory advances him to home. Or it likely would have kept R2 at 2nd and ended the play.

If the body language didn't say abandonment then I might consider R1 still in jeopardy of being tagged and basically at 2nd base (having not retreated towards 1st). If R2 now takes off for 3rd, I would have him passing R1 and he is out. R2 still in jeopardy and likely to be tagged before returning to 2nd.

If I didn't call R1 out for abandonment then I have set myself up for a continually worsening scenario. R1 is off the base. R2 is on 2nd. F4 arrives at the base with the ball and tags R2 (no call). F4 and ump wait for R1 to return... oh God it's getting worse!

Sometimes we create our own problems by not making immediate calls... and sometimes we make problems by calling them too soon but not in this case.

I vote for immediately calling R1 out and selling the fact that he obviously had given up his right to be at 2nd base. This, to me would create the least confusion.

I would think that seeing the play rather than trying to write about it would have made our decisions easier.

[BJ Moose]

I'm just doing this one noodle style.. But as I read this play, when R2 does his stroll, there is no TAG attempt, and that is the only baseline rule I know of. Abandonment takes much longer to adjudge.

So the order of this play is once R2 makes that first step, even directly toward CF.. then at that moment in time R1 is PAST him and R1 is OUT.

The 2nd out still might happen depending on the actions of the jogger.

Originally posted by Bfair

Moose, abandonment is when a player is not being played upon.


Freix