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-   -   Oh Boy! we have a mess! (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/40146-oh-boy-we-have-mess.html)

Ron Pilo Thu Dec 06, 2007 02:38pm

Oh Boy! we have a mess!
 
Tie game at 51. A1 shooting a 1 and 1 with 4.1 left. B1 that fouled has 5 and scorers table is trying to get the officials attention (without the horn), the officials don't hear it and the free throw takes place. A1 misses but scorers table doesn't start the clock (as they are still trying to get the officials attention for the fifth foul). The ball is tipped to A2 who pump fakes and goes back up and scores. Then Officials realize there is a problem.

What do you do?

rainmaker Thu Dec 06, 2007 02:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Pilo
Tie game at 51. A1 shooting a 1 and 1 with 4.1 left. B1 that fouled has 5 and scorers table is trying to get the officials attention (without the horn), the officials don't hear it and the free throw takes place. A1 misses but scorers table doesn't start the clock (as they are still trying to get the officials attention for the fifth foul). The ball is tipped to A2 who pump fakes and goes back up and scores. Then Officials realize there is a problem.

What do you do?

Did the B players make any attempt to rebound? (Stalling for time while I think it all over...)

jdw3018 Thu Dec 06, 2007 02:43pm

Unless you have definite knowledge of how much time should have come off the clock, you count the goal, notify B coach and B1 that he has 5 and has to be replaced, and you put the ball in play w/ B inbounding under the basket with the ability to run the endline and 4.1 on the clock.

If for some reason an official had a count on, you can subtract as many seconds as he counted if he counted until the error was recognized.

JugglingReferee Thu Dec 06, 2007 02:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Pilo
Tie game at 51. A1 shooting a 1 and 1 with 4.1 left. B1 that fouled has 5 and scorers table is trying to get the officials attention (without the horn), the officials don't hear it and the free throw takes place. A1 misses but scorers table doesn't start the clock (as they are still trying to get the officials attention for the fifth foul). The ball is tipped to A2 who pump fakes and goes back up and scores. Then Officials realize there is a problem.

What do you do?

Unless an official has definite knowledge how much time should have come off, the score definitely counts.

If an official does know how much time should have come off, then that definite knowledge can be used to take time off the clock. It can be used to determine if the score counts or not.

Edit: replace the fouled out player and continue with B's throw-in.

Remind the table to tell the official when a player has their 4th foul. This means that a player with 3 fouls needs to be of importance to the table.

Ron Pilo Thu Dec 06, 2007 02:49pm

Rainmaker,
All players were aware of the Free-throws and made an attempt to rebound.

hbioteach Thu Dec 06, 2007 02:51pm

I agree but you have definite knowledge that time should come off the clock. Put 3.8 on the clock. A minimum of 0.3 was needed to shoot.

jdw3018 Thu Dec 06, 2007 02:59pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by hbioteach
I agree but you have definite knowledge that time should come off the clock. Put 3.8 on the clock. A minimum of 0.3 was needed to shoot.

I don't believe the 0.3 required for a shot can be used. What I'm not certain about is if an official had a count of 2 for closely guarded and then the shot went up, obviously taking more time, could they take 2 seconds off?

I've always been under the impression that an official must know the entire duration to have definite knowledge and make any change, but I can't find a citation that the official must have definite knowledge of the entire period of time consumed...

inigo montoya Thu Dec 06, 2007 03:03pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdw3018
I don't believe the 0.3 required for a shot can be used. What I'm not certain about is if an official had a count of 2 for closely guarded and then the shot went up, obviously taking more time, could they take 2 seconds off?

I've always been under the impression that an official must know the entire duration to have definite knowledge and make any change, but I can't find a citation that the official must have definite knowledge of the entire period of time consumed...

According to a senior official running a training scrimmage this offseason, you can take off whatever time that you have definite knowledge of, even if it's only part of the interval. So if you have a throw-in in A's backcourt and A dribbles up the court, crosses midcourt, and takes a shot and the clock fails to start, you may use the backcourt count to take off fewer than 10 seconds.

I believe that 0.3 can be taken off but I've never faced that situation in a game and am not dogmatic on the point. To me, it constitutes definite knowledge by rule, but others see it differently.

Ignats75 Thu Dec 06, 2007 03:13pm

Quote:

definite knowledge
Thats the important info. It must be definite knowledge. the NFHS does not allow for estimating. It must be definite knowledge.

jdw3018 Thu Dec 06, 2007 03:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ignats75
Thats the important info. It must be definite knowledge. the NFHS does not allow for estimating. It must be definite knowledge.

Yes, but definite knowledge of what? hbioteach makes a good point that if a shot is taken, then we have definite knowledge that at least 0.3 had to elapse.

If I have definite knowledge through a closely guarded count that at least 2 seconds came off, can I take 2 seconds off even if I stopped counting before the ball was dead and in reality more than 2 seconds came off?

truerookie Thu Dec 06, 2007 04:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Pilo
Tie game at 51. A1 shooting a 1 and 1 with 4.1 left. B1 that fouled has 5 and scorers table is trying to get the officials attention (without the horn), the officials don't hear it and the free throw takes place. A1 misses but scorers table doesn't start the clock (as they are still trying to get the officials attention for the fifth foul). The ball is tipped to A2 who pump fakes and goes back up and scores. Then Officials realize there is a problem.

What do you do?

Put 2.1 on the scoreboard B throw -in anywhere along endline.

jdw3018 Thu Dec 06, 2007 04:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by truerookie
Put 2.1 on the scoreboard B throw -in anywhere along endline.

How in the world do you put 2.1 on the scoreboard?

bob jenkins Thu Dec 06, 2007 05:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdw3018
How in the world do you put 2.1 on the scoreboard?

Huh?

Most clocks that display 1/10s of seconds can be set to 1/10s of seconds.

If not, set it to 3.0 and run it down (a real quick on-off will usually be 1/10 of a second -- and I don't need any comments from Padgett on that statement)

icallfouls Thu Dec 06, 2007 05:35pm

Can you say 1972 Olympics? :D

Do it over until the team you like wins. :D

Adam Thu Dec 06, 2007 05:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins
Huh?

Most clocks that display 1/10s of seconds can be set to 1/10s of seconds.

If not, set it to 3.0 and run it down (a real quick on-off will usually be 1/10 of a second -- and I don't need any comments from Padgett on that statement)

He meant, "Why in the world do you put 2.1 seconds on the scoreboard?" There was initially 4.1 seconds. Why take 2 seconds off?


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