Question: helping your partner(s)

[Y2Koach]

I don't this particular topic is in the rulebook so I figured this would be the best place to ask about it. What limits do officials have as far as helping their partner on obvious calls that are missed? In the past, I have seen obvious out-of-bounds calls where the first official will signal one way and the partner will come in and let his partner know he saw something more definitive and change the call. I always appreciate officials that work together like this to get a call correct.

I've also seen plays where one official obviously gets it wrong, and the partner will admit as much but will not help out or change the call. Specifically, I was watching a game a while back and a player came flying in on an offensive rebound. The defense had tried to take a charge so there were several bodies piled up underneath the basket. The flying offensive rebounder (the kid was figuratively flying! (i LITERALLY hate the misuse of LITERALLY!)) grabbed the rim as there was nowhere to land beneath him. Lead official calls a Technical foul. As the Lead is reporting the foul, the coach asks "what did he do??" and the Lead says "you know he can't hang on the rim like that!"

As the FTs are being administered, the Trail official on that play is now in front of the scorers area and the coach asks him why its a Technical foul when there were 2 or 3 bodies on the ground under the basket. The Trail says, "yeah, I saw that coach". Coach asks why he can't go help his partner and the Trail says "it's his call".

What are the rules/etiquette/limits in helping out a partner? Does it depend on the type of call?

[Adam]

First of all, I'm right there with you on the "literally" thing. That, and "myself."

Anyway. Generally, I wait for a partner to ask for help unless I'm certain there's an aspect he didn't see. OOB calls, back court violations, etc. I've given information and allowed my partner to stick with it or change his call. I volunteered info as lead on a BC violation my partner called once. But it was a special circumstance when the ball had come out of the lane and I knew the T didn't see the defense knock it into the BC.

However, if I'm certain he saw everything and think he simply made an error in judgment, I'm waiting for him to request more info. Otherwise, it is his call.

Does this help?

[Y2Koach]

It does help. In the situation above, if you would have seen the pile of bodies on the floor and your partner called the T for hanging on the rim, would you talk to your partner and see if he would change the call?

[Adam]

If I could have caught him on his way to the table or before? Yes.

If I knew he was "less experienced" than me? Yes. Actually, it depends more on how I view his standing in the association. If, for example, it's the association president, or a long time varsity official respected by everyone, I'm probably not touching it if I am sure he saw the bodies. If I think there might be reason to think he didn't see the bodies, I might offer the info.

Did they communicate prior to the calling official reporting the T? This is when I would have offered the info.

If it's another JV official, I'll try to catch him.

Really, in this particular play, there are quite few dynamics at play.

[Y2Koach]

Not sure about the specifics, but from my vantage point, it seemed like the Lead was watching the shot after the airborne shooter released the shot. That's why i assumed he didn't call a block or charge. I have seen the Trail ref do my games in prior years and know that he has more experience than the Lead, although the Lead was older in age. There was no communication between officials, and the Lead (calling official) made a very emphatic "hand T" when he made the call and without hesitation headed straight to the scorers table.

[Adam]

At the very least, I'm sure this lead to a nice little talk in the locker room afterwards.

Looks like L didn't really give T an opportunity to help him out. In this situation, it sounds like you almost have to let him live with his own call.

[cdaref]

Coach, hopefully we as a crew have had a pregame meeting and discussed giving input on calls. Generally our discussion would be: "if you have info on a call of mine, come get me, ask me if I saw what you saw and then give me the chance to change my call. If you have to, go ahead and blow your whistle and get my attention."

The main problem, though, is that with differing areas of court coverage it may be that the the partner didnt get a good look. But a good crew will help their partner out when possible. As a general matter, though, if the call is in my partner's primary area, I am going to let it stand since I didnt have the look he did. But if I see a clear mistake, my partner and I will discuss it.

[cdaref]

In your particular situation, I take it what you are saying is that he was hanging on the rim as a safety issue because of the bodies on the floor. I have to say, I am going to presume my partner saw that. I probably wouldnt have given any input on that T call.

Believe me, (1) you dont want the officials watching in each others areas and (2) you dont want the delay of each official checking with the other on all those kinds of calls.

It would have to be a pretty big miss that I saw clearly and felt strongly about for me to give input to change a call.

[Y2Koach]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

At the very least, I'm sure this lead to a nice little talk in the locker room afterwards.

Looks like L didn't really give T an opportunity to help him out. In this situation, it sounds like you almost have to let him live with his own call.

I agree from an officials standpoint. from a coaches point of view, it would really suck to "live with" an obvious missed call that leads to a possible 4 point swing and a personal/technical foul added to the players total.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

I agree from an officials standpoint. from a coaches point of view, it would really suck to "live with" an obvious missed call that leads to a possible 4 point swing and a personal/technical foul added to the players total.

Honestly, I understand your thoughts on this, and it's unfortunate. I mean that literally.

However, cdaref alluded to the can of worms that gets opened when officials start offering help on judgment calls. Unless you have good reason to believe your partner didn't see something vital, or if you really think he doesn't know a certain rule, there's not much a partner can do. We can't over-rule anything, regardless.

In a situation like this, I'd like to think my partner would stop and at least tell me what he has before reporting. He's got to walk in my direction to report anyway coming from Lead.

[Y2Koach]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Honestly, I understand your thoughts on this, and it's unfortunate. I mean that literally.

However, cdaref alluded to the can of worms that gets opened when officials start offering help on judgment calls. Unless you have good reason to believe your partner didn't see something vital, or if you really think he doesn't know a certain rule, there's not much a partner can do. We can't over-rule anything, regardless.

In a situation like this, I'd like to think my partner would stop and at least tell me what he has before reporting. He's got to walk in my direction to report anyway coming from Lead.

Yeah, I'm assuming it was just a newer official missing a call and being over zealous in making a "look-at-me" type of call. I haven't seen that guy do any games of importance (mine, playoff games, high level match-ups, etc) so I can understand. As a coach, I would just like to see the more experienced official that admitted to seeing what happened go over and at least have a conversation with the other guy. If in their private convo, the calling official has some other explanation, or is just stubborn and won't change his stance even after knowing this information, the non-calling official will have done his best to make sure the team isn't unjustly penalized. Oh well, knowing my luck, that guy will show up at our season opener and T me up for having my toes over the coaching box line.

I guess refs are kind of line quarterbacks and point guards. The good ones see what in front of them and deal with whats in front of them. The great ones see the whole court/field and know when to break away from whats in front of them.

[Chess Ref]

So lets say he doesn't tweet a T, what should he have done ? Just leave the kid hanging from the rim until the bodies cleared out ? It just seems to be an almost can't win deal. Leave kid hanging or tweet something to stop play. Can we stop play in that sitch because of safety reasons and play it like an inadvertent whistle ?

[REFVA]

What was the Lead official looking up at the RIM for? He should be watching waste height for body banging. It's like Goal tending or BI that should be called by the C or T officials for hanging on the RIM.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by REFVA

What was the Lead official looking up at the RIM for? He should be watching waste height for body banging. It's like Goal tending or BI that should be called by the C or T officials for hanging on the RIM.

If we are talking about the play in the OP, the lead is likely the best person to see where players are in relationship to the basket. It is hard for the other officials to make this call unless they know without a doubt there was some showboating going on. Calling hanging on the rim is very different than calling a BI or GT from the lead.

Also to say that the other official saw something is also irrelevant to this call. This is completely a judgment call and it is very possible that two officials with similar backgrounds disagree. I was watching a game last night from the stands before the game I was going to work and there was an illegal screen called. In my opinion I felt the contact was legal or incidental and my partner that was sitting next to me thought it was a foul. Officials make calls also based on their experiences and understanding of rules and experiences enforcing those rules. Just because one official saw something does not make them correct. They just might have a different perspective.

Peace

[gordon30307]

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

I don't this particular topic is in the rulebook so I figured this would be the best place to ask about it. What limits do officials have as far as helping their partner on obvious calls that are missed? In the past, I have seen obvious out-of-bounds calls where the first official will signal one way and the partner will come in and let his partner know he saw something more definitive and change the call. I always appreciate officials that work together like this to get a call correct.

I've also seen plays where one official obviously gets it wrong, and the partner will admit as much but will not help out or change the call. Specifically, I was watching a game a while back and a player came flying in on an offensive rebound. The defense had tried to take a charge so there were several bodies piled up underneath the basket. The flying offensive rebounder (the kid was figuratively flying! (i LITERALLY hate the misuse of LITERALLY!)) grabbed the rim as there was nowhere to land beneath him. Lead official calls a Technical foul. As the Lead is reporting the foul, the coach asks "what did he do??" and the Lead says "you know he can't hang on the rim like that!"

As the FTs are being administered, the Trail official on that play is now in front of the scorers area and the coach asks him why its a Technical foul when there were 2 or 3 bodies on the ground under the basket. The Trail says, "yeah, I saw that coach". Coach asks why he can't go help his partner and the Trail says "it's his call".

What are the rules/etiquette/limits in helping out a partner? Does it depend on the type of call?

In both cases above you can give your partner "what you have". From that point on it's up to your partner to change the call.

I don't think it's a good idea to ever say "it's his call" or "yeah I saw that". If asked I say "talk to the official who made the call".