Unsportsmanlike?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I cannot think of an example of anything one player does being against the rules because another player does not like it.

Not coming down on one side or the other, but there is at least one instance of when the penalty for a player's actions is affected by the opponent's reaction.

Taunting, for example. If a shot blocker gets in the face of the shooter and starts taunting him, and the shooter hauls off and clocks him, we've got flagrants on both.

Or, even a hard personal foul that might otherwise be classed intentional could be escalated to flagrant if it results in a fight.

[Rev.Ref63]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Based on what you have just listed, you have not achieved the level of accomplishment to have such a strong opinion about something that is not supported by the rules.

Friend, you can say that it has no support by the rules all day long, but the fact of the matter is, it does have support. 10-3-7-C clearly states that it is unsporting to "bait" or "taunt" your opponent. The case book on 10-3-7 clearly states that the official must make a decision on unsporting behavior. The posture taken by A1 most definitely was unsporting in my opinion.

If A's coach complains to the assignor, then B's coach's praises would offset the complaint. When it comes to the safety of the kids on the court, my thoughts are not on losing opportunities in the future; my thoughts are controlling the game at hand.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I also think that the fact that the OPer is a Reverend and you are a compassionate women

I'm a big gal, but not so big that you need to refer to me in the plural!

[Adam]

So, let me get this straight? The majority opinion here is that a player may, during all dead ball situations, attempt to intimidate his opponent by acting as if he's playing belly-to-belly defense. As long as no contact is made, this is acceptable?

Yet, a player who comes out and guards the officials as some sort of joke gets a technical foul?

Personally, the tactic as described by the OP seems to be an obvious attempt to intimidate. This seems to be a pretty clear example of someone gaining an advantage not intended by the rules.

Knowing that I'd have to see it to be sure; it sounds like an unsporting T to me; such as B1 standing outside A's huddle during a timeout.

[tomegun]

If you tell a player to get out of another player's face - even though they aren't doing anything illegal by rule - when do you allow the player to get back in the player's face?

1. How close can they be?
2. When can they start playing defense?
3. How long do they have to move away once the ball becomes dead?
4. Do they have to move away during the time the ball passes through the net, hits the floor and is at the disposal of the inbounder?

In other words, how do you determine what you will allow during your officiating/coaching?
Do you (anyone can answer) say something and/or give a T for every other type of unsporting act? BTW, what would you say if the coach challenges you for telling his/her player for moving away?

[JRutledge]

I also want to add that I am not trying to ridicule you Rev. I am only trying to let you see the bigger picture. Just because you work some varsity does not mean you are at the same level of other officials working those games. I know I am not at the level of other varsity and college officials. I am starting to get that way on the varsity level and I have worked post-season games, but I would not call myself as the without a doubt "top official" in most conferences I work. I am at the point of my career that people question my motives when I work a lower level game. And it took some time to get there.

One way to guarantee you will not work advance to the point where you only work varsity and people start to really question why you work lower level games is not to make calls that is not well supported by the rules. If in this case there were words between the players then this is a different issue. But standing next to someone all by itself is not illegal. And the fact that you keep defending this does not add to what people might think about your ability or experience. I would tell you that if you said this to a room full of veterans, I would bet despite your experience people would be wondering how you got this ruling from. I know officials that have eliminated opportunities by what they say in meetings. I say this because we talk so much about the "old boy network" but we almost never focus on the way people perceive us because of how we call the game and this kind of call would raise some eyebrows if you fully explained your reasoning.

Peace

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

e. But standing next to someone all by itself is not illegal. And the fact that you keep defending this

It sounds as though the Rev isn't talking about standing next to someone. He's talking about being in their face. No, there's not a rule about that per se, but it's easy to see how it might be construed as taunting, which is illegal, and is up to a judgment. It feels to me as though you aren't seeing the sitch the way the Rev saw it.

He's also not exactly just defensively denying you, but trying to explain the circumstances better. That's just good communication.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tomegun

If you tell a player to get out of another player's face - even though they aren't doing anything illegal by rule - when do you allow the player to get back in the player's face?

1. How close can they be?
2. When can they start playing defense?
3. How long do they have to move away once the ball becomes dead?
4. Do they have to move away during the time the ball passes through the net, hits the floor and is at the disposal of the inbounder?

In other words, how do you determine what you will allow during your officiating/coaching?
Do you (anyone can answer) say something and/or give a T for every other type of unsporting act? BTW, what would you say if the coach challenges you for telling his/her player for moving away?

Legitimate questions.
1. If it's not something that looks and smells and walks like intimidation.... Follow him around, but when I'm reporting fouls, or when we're shooting intentional foul free throws, or he's on his way to the bench for a TO, or he's going to the water fountain; good grief. We're smart enough people to know when the defender is just trying to intimidate the offensive player.

2. When play is imminent. Until then, normal personal space rules apply.

3 and 4. Look, this is a judgment issue. Is B1 strictly trying to intimidate his opponent? If it's close, let it go. If it's obviously intimidation, it's a non-basketball play.

[tomegun]

I've done something like this in a game. There was a guy killing us and I made it my mission to take away his daylight to shoot. I wasn't saying anything or doing anything except being real close to him. How is that baiting or taunting?

Baiting - To entice, especially by trickery or strategy.
Taunting - To reproach in a mocking, insulting, or contemptuous manner

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by tomegun

I've done something like this in a game. There was a guy killing us and I made it my mission to take away his daylight to shoot. I wasn't saying anything or doing anything except being real close to him. How is that baiting or taunting?

Baiting - To entice, especially by trickery or strategy.
Taunting - To reproach in a mocking, insulting, or contemptuous manner

It isn't baiting or taunting during the play, while ball is live, while clock is running. It gets a lot more marginal when the ball is dead, subs are going in and out, ref is reporting foul, etc. That's the specific sitch we're discussing.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

It sounds as though the Rev isn't talking about standing next to someone. He's talking about being in their face. No, there's not a rule about that per se, but it's easy to see how it might be construed as taunting, which is illegal, and is up to a judgment. It feels to me as though you aren't seeing the sitch the way the Rev saw it.

He's also not exactly just defensively denying you, but trying to explain the circumstances better. That's just good communication.

It is always really hard to explain things through this forum because we cannot see what people are trying to describe. I understand that and this is why I have tried to clarify my position by only referring to someone just standing next to each other. I also said that I do not see how someone can just stand that close to someone without some type of contact in the process. I would think realistically that someone would push or hold to either maintain or to move someone away from that person. I am also not talking about gesturing that makes it seem like they are going to hit or contact the person in some kind of way. But if all we are talking about is someone standing next to someone, then I stand by what I have said about how this call does not pass the smell test.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tomegun

I've done something like this in a game. There was a guy killing us and I made it my mission to take away his daylight to shoot. I wasn't saying anything or doing anything except being real close to him. How is that baiting or taunting?

Baiting - To entice, especially by trickery or strategy.
Taunting - To reproach in a mocking, insulting, or contemptuous manner

Were you in his face on his way to the water fountain? Were you in his face as he walked to his bench for a TO? Were you in his face during intentional or technical foul free throws. Not just next to him, but in his face like in the OP.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It is always really hard to explain things through this forum because we cannot see what people are trying to describe. I understand that and this is why I have tried to clarify my position by only referring to someone just standing next to each other. I also said that I do not see how someone can just stand that close to someone without some type of contact in the process. I would think realistically that someone would push or hold to either maintain or to move someone away from that person. I am also not talking about gesturing that makes it seem like they are going to hit or contact the person in some kind of way. But if all we are talking about is someone standing next to someone, then I stand by what I have said about how this call does not pass the smell test.

Peace

People are arguing apples and oranges here.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

So, let me get this straight? The majority opinion here is that a player may, during all dead ball situations, attempt to intimidate his opponent by acting as if he's playing belly-to-belly defense. As long as no contact is made, this is acceptable?

Yet, a player who comes out and guards the officials as some sort of joke gets a technical foul?

I cannot speak for the majority, but I do not recall that I have ever said that you should call a T on a player that is guarding an official. Secondly, officials do not have guarding rules that govern our movement. But I would think if a player was just standing next to me I would not give a T as a result. I know I stand next to players all the time so I can quietly say things to them so I can prevent things. Should my partner's then T me up for approaching a player and violating their “personal space” as was indicated here?

Peace

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Were you in his face on his way to the water fountain? Were you in his face as he walked to his bench for a TO? Were you in his face during intentional or technical foul free throws. Not just next to him, but in his face like in the OP.

If a play was about to happen, yes.

For those in support of this, do you call every unsporting act?