Unsportsmanlike?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Hmmm... I don't know, Nevada. It would think it comes pretty close to unsportsmanlike to be literally in the other player's face during dead balls. I suppose it would also depend how everyone was handling it.

Are you saying that if the players are standing next to another player in between FTs is unsportsmanlike? And what about right after a basket? These two examples are clearly dead ball situations. If that is unsportsmanlike in your opinion, you are just making it up because a player gets frustrated. You will not find a single interpretation that supports that.

Originally Posted by rainmaker

But it's certainly NOT the defender's job to be guarding during play stoppages. After a whistle while ref is reporting, beckoning subs, etc. why should the defender be "working"? Staying near enough to be able to defend when the time comes, I can see that. But not closely guarding when there's not any game happening.

Once again, unless the player is saying something or making contact, I do not see anything wrong with this. Just because you do not like it does not mean you can start calling something unsportsmanlike because you do not see it often. This is not a very solid way of thinking if you ask me. Officials should not be looking for stuff to call because we do not like it.

Peace

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Are you saying that if the players are standing next to another player in between FTs is unsportsmanlike?

No. I'm talking about those times when the players are just milling about, catching their breath, conferring with each other, headed to their next position. Ref is reporting a foul, maybe talking to partner, calling in subs. That's why I started calling it a stoppage of play.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And what about right after a basket? These two examples are clearly dead ball situations.

I already said I wasn't specifically talking about the dead ball after a made basket.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If that is unsportsmanlike in your opinion, you are just making it up because a player gets frustrated. You will not find a single interpretation that supports that.

No, and I said specifically I wouldn't automatically call it unsportsmanlike, just that I'd be watching pretty closely.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

unless the player is saying something or making contact, I do not see anything wrong with this. Just because you do not like it does not mean you can start calling something unsportsmanlike because you do not see it often. This is not a very solid way of thinking if you ask me.

I'm not calling it unsportsmanlike just because I don't like it. It seems as though it might be close to taunting to be closely guarding during a stoppage of play. THere's no reason for it. It is confrontive and aggressive to be this close and it's not appropriate when there's no basketball action going on. Nevada said it's the player's job to guard, but it's not anyone's job when the game isn't going forward. guarding when there's nothing to guard isn't part of the equation. If it's not done very, very carefully, I think it could be taunting and should not be allowed. Not automatically, but possibly unsportsmanlike.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Officials should not be looking for stuff to call because we do not like it.

I agree and I'm not doing that.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

My point is please show me something which says that he can't.

Nothing specifically says he can't do this particular action, but there are a lot of actions that aren't specifically described that you'd stop someone from doing.

I'm envisioning a stoppage of play when the refs are reporting a foul, conferring with the table maybe, calling in subs, players are milling around. A1 is as close to B2 as white on rice that whole time. I'm seeing less than six inches of blue sky between them the whole time. The one guy right in front of the other. Can you imagine the guarded person just ignoring this? It's just really, really borderline in my opinion, and there's no reason for it. It certainly would require close attention.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

In my experience with this type of defensive tactic, if you try to play nose to nose with anybody all over the court, he/she will back door you to death.

That's what I was thinking when I figured this tactic could easily backfire, if a coach knows what the hell he's doing, and if a player is really that good. Unless the defender is reminiscent of a young Gary Payton, you really can't play good defense that closely.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Nothing specifically says he can't do this particular action, but there are a lot of actions that aren't specifically described that you'd stop someone from doing.

I'm envisioning a stoppage of play when the refs are reporting a foul, conferring with the table maybe, calling in subs, players are milling around. A1 is as close to B2 as white on rice that whole time. I'm seeing less than six inches of blue sky between them the whole time. The one guy right in front of the other. Can you imagine the guarded person just ignoring this? It's just really, really borderline in my opinion, and there's no reason for it. It certainly would require close attention.

What are players supposed to be doing while an official is reporting a foul? Preparing for the next play, right?

Now granted this is a bit different, but different does not equate to illegal. Don't penalize someone for using a tactic that is a strange.

The strangeness is exactly what could make it effective. People are thrown off by things that are different. If the defender's tactic can make the opponent uncomfortable, then perhaps this could benefit his team. Perhaps the opponent will lose mental focus and not shoot as well.

If you are ever encountered with this defensive tactic, as I was, I would hope that you would watch it closely, but not deem it in and of itself illegal. Allow the coaches and players to be creative with their tactics. What you may see as annoying or irksome, another may consider clever. The NFHS book says that cleverness is encouraged right in the front in the Intent and Purpose of the Rules.

[Rev.Ref63]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Why? Got any rules support that says that he has to back off when the ball is dead?
I wouldn't even think of instructing the player to move away. That's not my duty. The player may find the defender's constant presence annoying, but it certainly is not illegal, and furthermore that's exactly the defender's job.

For me, the NOTE: on 10-3-7-C would be enough to back him up. In my opinion, A1 crossed the line when he was "nose-to-nose" with B1. He was not just "near him" as has been stated; he was literally in his face at all times, similar to how a drill instructor gets in the face of a new recruit. If he'd stuck his tongue out we would have had contact.

He was, IMO, trying to embarrass, ridicule, and demean, the opponent.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

What are players supposed to be doing while an official is reporting a foul? Preparing for the next play, right?

Now granted this is a bit different, but different does not equate to illegal. Don't penalize someone for using a tactic that is a strange.

The strangeness is exactly what could make it effective. People are thrown off by things that are different. If the defender's tactic can make the opponent uncomfortable, then perhaps this could benefit his team. Perhaps the opponent will lose mental focus and not shoot as well.

If you are ever encountered with this defensive tactic, as I was, I would hope that you would watch it closely, but not deem it in and of itself illegal. Allow the coaches and players to be creative with their tactics. What you may see as annoying or irksome, another may consider clever. The NFHS book says that cleverness is encouraged right in the front in the Intent and Purpose of the Rules.

Well, as I've said all the way along, I think I'd have to see it to be certain. But it sounds to me as though the "tactic" is a legitimate basketball strategy during play, and not legitimate during stoppages. I'm also wondering about the level of play. RevRef? Was it JH girls? Or varsity boys? College? Just wondering.

But your comment about cleverness requires some response. It's certainly clever and not specifically forbidden to stand in the opponent's huddle during a TO. Do you think that's acceptable? What if the guarded player was trying to have a quick huddle with floor teammates during a stoppage and the guarding player kept worming into the middle to maintain his nose-to-nose stance? Would you allow that?

[Dan_ref]

This happened to me the other night

B1 fouls A1 kinda hard, team A was asking me for an intentional, they didn't get it. I'm C for the freethrows and as we're setting up A2 walks over to me and we start talking. B1 follows and stands right next to me. I asked him what he wanted and he said he just wanted to hear what was being said.

What do you do now?

We used this tactic when I was asst coach for an 8th grade girls team. Their best player was killing us in the first half. Second half, we just put our biggest forward on their high scorer and shadowed her wherever she went on the court (not during dead balls and such though). It worked great. The girl was frustrated as hell and scored only 4 pts the rest of the game, which we won.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

This happened to me the other night

B1 fouls A1 kinda hard, team A was asking me for an intentional, they didn't get it. I'm C for the freethrows and as we're setting up A2 walks over to me and we start talking. B1 follows and stands right next to me. I asked him what he wanted and he said he just wanted to hear what was being said.

What do you do now?

In this case, I'd let him listen. It's just an explanation of the call. If I was having a l'il "heart-to-heart" with a player over something though, I might shoo the other player away and keep the original tete-a-tete just between the two involved parties. JMO.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rev.Ref63

For me, the NOTE: on 10-3-7-C would be enough to back him up. In my opinion, A1 crossed the line when he was "nose-to-nose" with B1. He was not just "near him" as has been stated; he was literally in his face at all times, similar to how a drill instructor gets in the face of a new recruit. If he'd stuck his tongue out we would have had contact.

He was, IMO, trying to embarrass, ridicule, and demean, the opponent.

Rev,

That all sounds wonderful, but your logic sounds like something I would expect from a younger, inexperienced, lower level official that has never or rarely gets varsity or college assignments. I have no idea what your background is in officiating and what you are used to working. But you do not see any people that claim to work high levels saying your ruling makes a lot of sense. Even your rules reference has no interpretation that backs that up that way of thinking. I run a new officials class for my association and this is the kind of question that I expect to come from them. They are not used to being around the game and they are not used to enforcing rules so they ask questions that many that have experience would roll their eyes about.

I have no problem with you asking the question, but to try to justify it with a very shady interpretation is where I have the problem. I know we talk a lot about the "old boy networks" and other systems where people get assignments or lose assignments based on who you know. But I can personally tell you that more people lose opportunities because they call things that despite their good intentions are not widely accepted and lose opportunities as a result of "making stuff up" because the individual thinks they are doing the right thing. Standing next to someone is not illegal. And we should not be making calls because a player is frustrated by a legal act. That is not very good officiating in my opinion.

Peace

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Rev.Ref63

If he'd stuck his tongue out we would have had contact.

If that happens, you should tell them to get a room.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Rev,

I have no problem with you asking the question, but to try to justify it with a very shady interpretation is where I have the problem. I know we talk a lot about the "old boy networks" and other systems where people get assignments or lose assignments based on who you know. But I can personally tell you that more people lose opportunities because they call things that despite their good intentions are not widely accepted and lose opportunities as a result of "making stuff up" because the individual thinks they are doing the right thing. Standing next to someone is not illegal. And we should not be making calls because a player is frustrated by a legal act. That is not very good officiating in my opinion.

Agree. The worst thing you can you is try to apply your own personal dislikes and bias towards situations that arise during a game. Just because you personally don't like what's happening doesn't make it illegal. We all run into players and coaches that just grate on our nerves, personality-wise, but we have to treat them exactly the same as everybody else.

[rainmaker]

Okay, let me be sure I understand what you're saying, JR and JR.

It's okay for A1 to dog B1, staying within 6 inches, for an entire two or three hour period, as long as it takes for the game to process, as long as LGP is maintained and there's only incidental contact. That's your stand?

What would you say to B1 if he commented to you that he didn't like it?

DO you draw the line at TO's and half-time? If B1 is trying to talk to a teammate, and A1 is hovering, you wouldn't back A1 off?

So far I'm just asking where you draw the line. But I'm also thinking...

This wouldn't be legal on the street, it would be stalking. Why is it okay on the bball court?

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Okay, let me be sure I understand what you're saying, JR and JR.

It's okay for A1 to dog B1, staying within 6 inches, for an entire two or three hour period, as long as it takes for the game to process, as long as LGP is maintained and there's only incidental contact. That's your stand?

What would you say to B1 if he commented to you that he didn't like it?

DO you draw the line at TO's and half-time? If B1 is trying to talk to a teammate, and A1 is hovering, you wouldn't back A1 off?

So far I'm just asking where you draw the line. But I'm also thinking...

This wouldn't be legal on the street, it would be stalking. Why is it okay on the bball court?

I'm neither JR nor JR, and I've been pretty much an interested spectator for this thread. But, I have some thoughts.

First, I wouldn't back A1 off if B1 is talking to a teammate. All B1 has to do is turn around and his back is then to A1, and if B2 is standing there, A1 can't get right back in front of him without fouling.

As for where the line is, it's certainly beyond that for me.

And, the "legal on the street" issue definitely doesn't apply. If I go down the street setting screens and boxing people out, that's not going to be legal, either.