The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 16, 2005, 12:29pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Pensacola
Posts: 52
Tip-off tourney last wknd. Ima girls' V coach; my school's V boys are getting a whuppin(50-17 end of half). During middle of 2nd, the opposing coach pulls his D over to his bench and has them watch my school's O score an uncontested layup. One of the weakest players on our team happened to have the ball at the high post when the D left, and it took him two shots to make the layup. Their crowd laughed. The boy knew they were laughing at his failure. Do you call the T on the coach for unsportsmanlike act? When he did it AGAIN in the 3rd, do you call it? Or is this just something a coach may do if he chooses to, (thoughtless as it seems to me)? We've all been whupped and we've all performed the whuppin... I had never seen this before. Thanks for your opinions.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 16, 2005, 12:41pm
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Houghton, U.P., Michigan
Posts: 9,953
Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally posted by imagomer
One of the weakest players on our team happened to have the ball at the high post when the D left, and it took him two shots to make the layup. Their crowd laughed.
imagomer,
If I saw that act the same as you did, then I would have a quick talk about sportamanship and humiliation with that coach. A repeat, then, could warrant an unsporting technical.
mick
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 16, 2005, 01:22pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 270
Quote:
Originally posted by mick
Quote:
Originally posted by imagomer
One of the weakest players on our team happened to have the ball at the high post when the D left, and it took him two shots to make the layup. Their crowd laughed.
imagomer,
If I saw that act the same as you did, then I would have a quick talk about sportamanship and humiliation with that coach. A repeat, then, could warrant an unsporting technical.
mick
IMO, no warning needed. I would have given a technical for the unsporting behavior. Your pre game coachÂ’s and captains meeting should have addressed sportsmanship. During the game, preventive game management means to have sensed the moment to warn before the unacceptable behavior occurs and not to warn after the fact. When the score was lopsided and players/team began to show signs of clowning around, officials should have spoken to the coach that any form of unapproved taunting acts will not be tolerated.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 16, 2005, 01:54pm
Huck Finn
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 3,347
I think I'm missing something. How would this be different than a team being in the front court and the coach yelling, "don't foul?" They still wouldn't be playing any defense. The crowd laughed at the player who didn't make the layup but that wasn't caused because the team was at the bench; the same thing could have happened if the team was in the front court. The only thing I think is odd about this play is the fact that the team wasn't even in the front court. Is there something else involved with this play?
__________________
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are." -- John Wooden
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 16, 2005, 02:14pm
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Houghton, U.P., Michigan
Posts: 9,953
Arrow

Quote:
Originally posted by johnny1784
Quote:
Originally posted by mick
Quote:
Originally posted by imagomer
One of the weakest players on our team happened to have the ball at the high post when the D left, and it took him two shots to make the layup. Their crowd laughed.
imagomer,
If I saw that act the same as you did, then I would have a quick talk about sportsmanship and humiliation with that coach. A repeat, then, could warrant an unsporting technical.
mick
IMO, no warning needed. I would have given a technical for the unsporting behavior. Your pre game coachÂ’s and captains meeting should have addressed sportsmanship. During the game, preventive game management means to have sensed the moment to warn before the unacceptable behavior occurs and not to warn after the fact. When the score was lopsided and players/team began to show signs of clowning around, officials should have spoken to the coach that any form of unapproved taunting acts will not be tolerated.
johnny1784,
The reason I would initiate a chat would be to find out, "Wazzupwithat?".
There could have been an actual legitimate reason in that coach's mind.
mick
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 16, 2005, 02:25pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Pensacola
Posts: 52
I'm not omitting any significant facts. The opposing team was well-behaved. No taunting or trash-talking. The coach did not call them over to discuss or change tactics. They maintained 'til the final buzzer an aggressive trapping D, with a full court pest on our decent point guard. Best case: he was being "kind" and "generous." Worse case: he was being "insulting and condescending." Worst case: he intended to destroy the psyches of our team (slightly hyperbolic).
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 16, 2005, 02:28pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Western Mass.
Posts: 9,104
Send a message via AIM to ChuckElias
I'm with Tomegun on this one. The opposing coach gives you a (literally) uncontested possession at your basket, and you want to give him a T? Then you want to T the coach b/c the crowd laughed when the varsity player missed the (literally) uncontested layup? Was the coach inciting the crowd to laugh? Or did the crowd laugh b/c a kid couldn't hit a lay-up? If the kid had made the lay-up, would you want a T?

As long as all the players were still on the floor, and there was no verbal taunting during the uncontested possession, there is absolutely no T here whatsoever.
__________________
Any NCAA rules and interpretations in this post are relevant for men's games only!
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 16, 2005, 02:57pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Posts: 412
Send a message via MSN to crazy voyager
this is tricky, I'd like to see this kind of play to make a decision. I would say in most cases T though, a coach doesn't drag off all 5 players, and as I get your post he didn't even have them in a circle and talk, they stood watching. That is what I would call highly unsportsmanlike.

Not as bad as when a coach once called out "shoot own goals girls, don't let them lose by as much" I didn't officiate that game, lucky coach :@
__________________
All posts I do refers to FIBA rules
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 16, 2005, 03:35pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Pensacola
Posts: 52
Chuck,
I think the pulling of the D was the unsportmanlike act, not the crowd's laughter. IMO, the couch "taunted" our team, in a sense. I hope you can appreciate the possible perception of his act as unsportsmanship, regardless of your own experienced judgement call that his "gift" of an unconested lay-up may not be unsporting. Again, from my perception, he was saying very publicly, "you guys stink so badly that you don't even deserve the respect of our putting our team on the floor." Our stinkage is not really very arguable, but the very public display of a lack of respect seemed unsporting to me. I do thank you all for your opinions/judgements. I asked for them and I did not expect all to agree with my perception.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 16, 2005, 03:54pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,557
Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias
I'm with Tomegun on this one. The opposing coach gives you a (literally) uncontested possession at your basket, and you want to give him a T? Then you want to T the coach b/c the crowd laughed when the varsity player missed the (literally) uncontested layup? Was the coach inciting the crowd to laugh? Or did the crowd laugh b/c a kid couldn't hit a lay-up? If the kid had made the lay-up, would you want a T?

As long as all the players were still on the floor, and there was no verbal taunting during the uncontested possession, there is absolutely no T here whatsoever.
I agree.. why stop the clock from rolling in a blowout anyways?
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 16, 2005, 04:11pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 45
I havent read all of the replies, so please excuse me if I am doing any repeating. I have intentionally not looked in any of the rule books, therefore my opinion is simply that....and one of reaction.

I would have a tough time giving a T for this situation, although I must admit I would have to be there to be 100%. However, the point of the game is to score points......and the team/coach that ALLOWED the other team to do just that without playing any D is their right......and putting myself in a situation where I am attempting to control crowd behavior and reaction is something I would consider dangerous, to say the least.

Let's look at this from another angle......

One team is winning by alot of points, and the coach decides to put in the crowd favored scrub ( every team has one, admit it ). The team does everything that it possibly can to get this player the ball so he can score....and the crowd cheers and laughs when he does.

In my opinion, THAT situation would be far worse than the one initially described.....salt on the wounds, so-to-speak.

Very interested in the opinion of others on this one!!

Savaahn
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 16, 2005, 04:19pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 45
Sorry...my verdict:

No call in either situation.


Personal note: have you ever had a coach pressing in the 4th quarter when he is up by 15-20 points...and there is not a doubt in anyone's mind that even if his players stood by their bench for the remainder of the game, they wouldnt lose???

How I have handled this in the past is simply to make a humorous comment to the coach about the situation......but I refrain from telling him what to do or how to coach.

My point here is that there are so many situations where, be it subtle or no-so-subtle, teams rub it in..for whatever reason. Once we place ourselves in one, it would be my opinion that we are opening ourselves to situations that should never be within our jurisdiction.

Love the topic!!! I look forward to hearing other opinions on this one.

Savaahn Ty



Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 16, 2005, 04:31pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 45
Sorry, couldnt resist

Imagomer:

All I can say after reading your posts is this:

This is the simplest of reasons why the officials who work the game are not: 1) parents of any of the players, 2) staff who work at either of the school, or 3) coaches for either of the teams

I can certainly understand your opinion, given your position...and learning more about the way coaches think and how they see things is a large help in improving how I ( we all ) deal with them in different situations. But as a non-biased 3rd party, my reaction to the situation does not have any emotional ties to it...and I see no reason to call a T.

Ok, honestly.... I'm done

Savaahn

Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 16, 2005, 04:46pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Pflugerville, TX
Posts: 293
Send a message via Yahoo to SeanFitzRef
No call.

Would it have been a problem if he calls three of his players to their bench while they have the ball, so the other team is only defending two/three players? I have seen coaches do this before because they have seen something on defense that they didn't like so they talk to the player during the offensive possesion. If he chooses to have his team ply no defense, that is his/her perrogative as head coach.
__________________
Nature gave men two ends - one to sit on and one to think with. Ever since then man's success or failure has been dependent on the one he used most.
-- George R. Kirkpatrick
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 16, 2005, 04:48pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Western Mass.
Posts: 9,104
Send a message via AIM to ChuckElias
Quote:
Originally posted by imagomer
Chuck,
I think the pulling of the D was the unsportmanlike act
The problem is that it's perfectly legal to position one's players wherever one wants to, as long as the players remain on the playing court. The coach did nothing illegal, so it's really really hard for me to penalize him for it.

If the coach had made verbal taunts or gestures that indicate "you stink", or made the throat slash, or any action that would be unsportsmanlike, I could penalize it. But simply moving your players to your own frontcourt is hardly unsporting. It's possible, although unlikely, that the coach was willing to trade 2 points for an uncharged TO to set up the next play. I have no way of knowing.

I understand your point, I really do. And I can see why you might not like the move. But I can't force a team to play defense. Maybe instead of taking the uncontested layup, your team could've just stood there in the frontcourt until the other team decided to come back and play.
__________________
Any NCAA rules and interpretations in this post are relevant for men's games only!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:18am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1