Unsportsmanlike?

[Rev.Ref63]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I would not ignore it because it is a competitive match-up. That does not mean I would call a T.

Nor would I call a 'T.' As I stated many times, I would back the player up a step and get him out of the opponent's face. I can't imagine any coach having a problem with that.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Rev.Ref63

Nor would I call a 'T.' As I stated many times, I would back the player up a step and get him out of the opponent's face. I can't imagine any coach having a problem with that.

My question is why not two steps? Why not 2.25 feet? Before giving the inbounder the ball do you say, "OK, you can start to play defense now?" How long does a player have to be in another players "personal space" before it becomes an issue and you step in to make the player move? What if the offensive player is part of an offensive play that requires him to move towards the defensive player? Do you tell him he can't since you moved the defensive player out of his personal space?

I understand what you are getting at, but everything that goes on in a basketball game isn't for us to like. We are there to apply the rules. If you think a player is breaking a rule, apply the penalty. I think I might have more problems with all the adjustments that would have to be made.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

It's certainly clever and not specifically forbidden to stand in the opponent's huddle during a TO.

Please tell me that you don't really believe that.

5-12-5 . . . The 60-second time-out conference with team members shall be conducted within the confines of the bench area. Players shall remain standing within the confines of the bench area during a 30-second time-out. (1-13-3)

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Anticipating an extreme question, no I would not find it acceptable for a player to follow his opponent into the huddle during a time out.

It's not acceptable because there's a specific rule prohibiting it. See my above post.

Now can we go back to discussing the legal situation that people are making such a big deal about?

[Rev.Ref63]

Originally Posted by tomegun

My question is why not two steps? Why not 2.25 feet?

A lot of questions could be avoided if you would not read more into the situation than is there. My opinion is that the posture A1 took was unsporting. I would back him up a step to remedy that specific issue.

Before giving the inbounder the ball do you say, "OK, you can start to play defense now?"

Not applicable in the least.

How long does a player have to be in another players "personal space" before it becomes an issue and you step in to make the player move?

As soon as it becomes unsporting in my opinion.

What if the offensive player is part of an offensive play that requires him to move towards the defensive player? Do you tell him he can't since you moved the defensive player out of his personal space?

Again, not applicable. This has nothing to do with "personal space." The issue is unsportsmanlike conduct. To make it any more than that is answering a different question. May I remind you of the title of this thread? It is "Unsportsmanlike?".

If you think a player is breaking a rule, apply the penalty.

My point exactly. It is at that very point that I would step in.

I think I might have more problems with all the adjustments that would have to be made.

No other adjustments need be made. This is a very simple situation that can be taken care of by one explanation. Again, I can't imagine any coach having a problem with that. Actually, his defender will be far more effective if he backed up a step.

[tomegun]

Rev, it really isn't up to us to worry about where a defender would be more effective. All those (absurd) questions I asked were aimed at getting to the bottom of what you are trying to do. If you see an unsporting act like this and you feel it necessary, penalize it. I would hope that you would also penalize other unsporting acts in the same manner.

[Rev.Ref63]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Rev, it really isn't up to us to worry about where a defender would be more effective.

Friend, surely you understand that I was explaining why I think that no coach would have a problem with me backing his player up a step. I would, in no circumstance, make a decision based upon making any player more effective.

All those (absurd) questions I asked were aimed at getting to the bottom of what you are trying to do.

I apologize if I have been unclear. I thought it was obvious.

If you see an unsporting act like this and you feel it necessary, penalize it. I would hope that you would also penalize other unsporting acts in the same manner.

I do not consider backing the player up a step as penalizing him. It is merely good game control in my opinion.

I am working a HS varsity game tonight in Hot Springs with two men I've never met. I'll discuss this situation with them and report back, if anyone is interested what they say.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Rev.Ref63

Friend, surely you understand that I was explaining why I think that no coach would have a problem with me backing his player up a step.

And there is exactly where the disagreement lies. I, and others, think that most coaches will get in your grill and ask you why you're making their players back up. And the only rules justification that you have for doing so is telling them that you think that what they are doing is unsporting. Well, good luck with that one, Rev. You will be having problems imo.

[tomegun]

I'm somewhat at fault here for dragging this whole discussion out. Straight to the point - too many officials worry too much about once-in-a-career situations yet they can't do the fundamental stuff necessary to properly officiate any game let alone a high school varsity game. I'm not speaking to anyone in particular unless you live in Arizona, Nevada, the DC area (Maryland, Northern Virginia and the District) or Mississippi. However, common sense tells me that those aren't the only places where this occurs. This is a quote from Rut and sums up how I feel about this situation:

Originally Posted by JRutledge
...officiating is about concentrating on things that are realistic and getting good and calling or dealing with things that are much more realistic. ... Officials should be concentrating on basic fouls and basic violations. To me to call anything is trying to be a maverick with the rules so that you can prove you know something. This is not solid officiating just to call something because you want everyone to get along.
Peace

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And there is exactly where the disagreement lies. I, and others, think that most coaches will get in your grill and ask you why you're making their players back up. And the only rules justification that you have for doing so is telling them that you think that what they are doing is unsporting. Well, good luck with that one, Rev. You will be having problems imo.

Thank you. Thank you so much.

Remember what I've been saying recently about some people not listening to veterans?

[Rev.Ref63]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And there is exactly where the disagreement lies. I, and others, think that most coaches will get in your grill and ask you why you're making their players back up.

My life has been dedicated to communicating truth to people. I'm quite sure that I can explain that decision very easily. I've not had a coach "in my grill" in eight years but, if and when it happens, I'll be ready to deal with it. That's the advantage of being 44 instead of 25.

And the only rules justification that you have for doing so is telling them that you think that what they are doing is unsporting.

As you know, when it comes to unsporting conduct, there are only three people in the gym whose opinion counts. The coach doesn't have a vote in this one. The officials are the only unbiased people in the gym; therefore, we have to make that judgment.

Well, good luck with that one, Rev. You will be having problems imo.

I guess we'll have to wait and see. In the unlikely event that this scenario presents itself in a game that I am working, I'll have a decision to make.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

. And the only rules justification that you have for doing so is telling them that you think that what they are doing is unsporting.

In all seriousness, what if you say you judge it to be unsporting? I agree that this situation is unlikely to ever happen. And the person being guarded is the best one to deal with it by simply pivoting everytime the guarding person gets in the face. It will soon become apparent what's going on and who's being a jerk, and how silly that is. But if that person does continue even when it's ridiculous (which is sounds to me like what the Rev is saying), wouldn't that border on unsportsmanlike? Isn't that sort of harrassment unsportsmanlike? And isn't that a judgment rather than just a personal opinion?

[tomegun]

Please don't make this about anything other than officiating; your calling shouldn't have anything to do with officiating other than how you let your light shine. That might be one of the problems here: 44-8=36; you started officiating at the age of 36. Jurassic, how long have you been officiating? MTD, how about you? My point here is these gentlemen may have been officiating nearly as long as you've been alive.
Sometimes it is difficult for someone to be mature and start officiating. Your success in other areas of life does not automatically make you a seasoned veteran official. Rev, we are having this discussion - over the Internet - but this isn't just about you. This is a problem many places.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Please don't make this about anything other than officiating; your calling shouldn't have anything to do with officiating other than how you let your light shine. That might be one of the problems here: 44-8=36; you started officiating at the age of 36. Jurassic, how long have you been officiating? MTD, how about you? My point here is these gentlemen may have been officiating nearly as long as you've been alive.
Sometimes it is difficult for someone to be mature and start officiating. Your success in other areas of life does not automatically make you a seasoned veteran official. Rev, we are having this discussion - over the Internet - but this isn't just about you. This is a problem many places.

Sheez, tom, lighten up. Jurassic and MTD are definitely authoritative but you've never let that stop you from disagreeing with them. SO why is it now a problem when the Rev does it?

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

In all seriousness, what if you say you judge it to be unsporting?

I cannot believe this thread keeps going and going...if you judge anything to be unsporting then you address it.

Why would anyone need to ask this question?