Unsportsmanlike?

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yup, just another rec league warrior with the ol' macho rec league attitude. Same old, same old.

Waste of time arguing with this one, folks. He'll never get it.

Whatever. I can tell you never picked up a ball in your life. At least I've PLAYED the game and actually seen the good, bad and ugly. 2,100 points later I'd say I have a better appreciation than you for the game.

I've seen a million of you pedantic officials. What old folks home are you at?

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by MeRef

Whatever. I can tell you never picked up a ball in your life. At least I've PLAYED the game and actually seen the good, bad and ugly. 2,100 points later I'd say I have a better appreciation than you for the game.

I've seen a million of you pedantic officials. What old folks home are you at?

LOL!! Standard response to obviously true criticism -- deflect the attention away from your own shortcomings.

This is a site for refs to learn how to be better refs. SOme of us played, some didn't. You don't have to play at all to be a very good ref. 2100 points scored in your lifetime doesn't give you diddly qualifications to discuss reffing. At least not with refs. There are a number of good fan and player and coach sites on the internet. You'll get more sympathy there.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by MeRef

it is reasonable to assume that illegal contact will eventually occur when "Player B had no room to even take a step forward.". All one has to do is envison a cut back to the left and running into the defender or the defender cutting him off and creating contact.

For any officials reading Rec League Ronny's words above, please note that a defensive player after establishing a legal guarding position does not have to give a step to an opponent from the front. They can get as close as they want, short of touching. Everything mentioned in the last sentence above would be either a PC or TC foul on B if the contact was between the defender's shoulders.

Rec League Ronny very obviously does not how the applicable rules work.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by MeRecLeagueRonny

At least I've PLAYED the game and actually seen the good, bad and ugly.

Yup, you played the game. If you say so. Unfortunately, this is an officials' web site. We officiate the game.

You're obviously in the wrong place.

[Rev.Ref63]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

I'd be interested to hear how the game turned out. RevRef63?

Thanks you for the many responses. I agree 100% about the closely guarded and screening interpretations mentioned here. My thoughts were more toward unsportsmanlike conduct. It was taunting in my opinion; especially during dead balls, free throws, and while Team A was on offense. I would have backed him up at least a step to remove all appearance of taunting.

The tactic did work, however. B1, normally a 20+ ppg was held to 13. The chemistry of Team B was totally out of whack. They lost by a significant margin.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Rev.Ref63

It was taunting in my opinion; especially during dead balls and free throws.

He stayed on him during dead balls? Yea, I'd have done something about that. I'm not sure what. I'd have to see it to know for sure.

[Rev.Ref63]

I would have simply moved him back and explained to the coach that this particular posture has no place in the game. I would reference 10-3-7-C. Just because a situation is legal doesn't meant that it is appropriate or sportsmanlike. For example, it is legal to save a ball and throw it off of the opponents face but it is more sporting and appropriate to save it off his leg. It is a judgment call by the official. This would apply in this situation as well, IMO.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Rev.Ref63

I would have simply moved him back and explained to the coach that this particular posture has no place in the game. I would reference 10-3-7-C. Just because a situation is legal doesn't meant that it is appropriate or sportsmanlike. For example, it is legal to save a ball and throw it off of the opponents face but it is more sporting and appropriate to save it off his leg. It is a judgment call by the official. This would apply in this situation as well, IMO.

Boy, I don't know Rev. Not having seen the play myself, I can't say for sure, but I don't know that you can call anything on this kind of play during play. I think legal defense, even stifling, is different from saving the ball off someone's face. I would definitely back the guy during game stoppages (not the dead balls after made baskets). But this kind of defense, played legally, is just great basketball. If you really feel that something needs to be done, just carefully don't miss any illegal contact, and call it all. But I don't see how you can require him to back up from playing legally, however close.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

He stayed on him during dead balls? Yea, I'd have done something about that. I'm not sure what. I'd have to see it to know for sure.

Originally Posted by rainmaker

I would definitely back the guy during game stoppages (not the dead balls after made baskets).

Why? Got any rules support that says that he has to back off when the ball is dead?
I wouldn't even think of instructing the player to move away. That's not my duty. The player may find the defender's constant presence annoying, but it certainly is not illegal, and furthermore that's exactly the defender's job.

BTW I had this exact situation last year in the regular season finale. The coach's instruction was for his guy to follow his man everywhere on the court and stay right in front of him.
I simply let the defender know that he couldn't cause contact and that he would be watched closely, and then told the offensive player that we were keeping on eye on it and that he needed to keep his composure and take the tight marking as a compliment. Both guys were cool about it the whole game.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by MeRef

Correct, this thread does call for a little bit of extrapolation unless these guys think the players are stationary the whole game. it is reasonable to assume that illegal contact will eventually occur when "Player B had no room to even take a step forward.". All one has to do is envison a cut back to the left and running into the defender or the defender cutting him off and creating contact.

I guess if we can't extrapolate the OP then we are done.

Your extrapolation needs work. That's a foul on the offensive player.

The fact is that you have no clue about how to ajudicate this situation under the rules.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Why? Got any rules support that says that he has to back off when the ball is dead?
I wouldn't even think of instructing the player to move away. That's not my duty. The player may find the defender's constant presence annoying, but it certainly is not illegal, and furthermore that's exactly the defender's job.

BTW I had this exact situation last year in the regular season finale. The coach's instruction was for his guy to follow his man everywhere on the court and stay right in front of him.
I simply let the defender know that he couldn't cause contact and that he would be watched closely, and then told the offensive player that we were keeping on eye on it and that he needed to keep his composure and take the tight marking as a compliment. Both guys were cool about it the whole game.

Hmmm... I don't know, Nevada. It would think it comes pretty close to unsportsmanlike to be literally in the other player's face during dead balls. I suppose it would also depend how everyone was handling it.

But it's certainly NOT the defender's job to be guarding during play stoppages. After a whistle while ref is reporting, beckoning subs, etc. why should the defender be "working"? Staying near enough to be able to defend when the time comes, I can see that. But not closely guarding when there's not any game happening.

[Nevadaref]

My point is please show me something which says that he can't.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by MeRef

My subsequent comments were from the perspective of a former Division 1-AA college player, who routinely dealt with this sort of juvenile intimidation tactics.

MeRef:

There are not now, nor have there ever been any NCAA Div. I-AA basketball teams. There are only Div. 1 basketball teams.

MTD, Sr.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

MeRef:

There are not now, nor have there ever been any NCAA Div. I-AA basketball teams. There are only Div. 1 basketball teams.

MTD, Sr.

Maybe he played football? 2100 points is a lot in football!

Dare I say, Diebleresque?

[just another ref]

In my experience with this type of defensive tactic, if you try to play nose to nose with anybody all over the court, he/she will back door you to death.