When to stop closely guarded count?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by FrankHtown

Maybe it is a Texas thing, but the interpretation we use is that the defender has to be doing more than standing there, even within 6 feet.

It sounds like Texas follows the rule as written.

Nope, you're following a Texas interpretation. They're definitely not following the rule as written. There is nothing listed anywhere in the rules that states that a defender doesn't have to be doing anything but be within the 6 foot space.

If you still have the 2004-05 rule book, they had a POE on "closely guarded" that laid out the criteria used. Here's the relevant stuff:

1. Closely Guarded.
A: When To Start: A closely guarded situation occurs when a player in control of the ball in his or her team's front court, is guarded by an opponent who is within six feet of that player who is holding or dribbling the ball. It must also be emphasized that the defensive player must obtain a legal guarding position.
When To Stop: A closely-guarded count ends when no defensive player is within six feet.

That's it! They mention the different counts, beating a defender by head and shoulders, multiple defenders, etc.There's no mention anywhere that says that a defender has to be "actively" guarding and there never has been at any time that I know of.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

It's an unannounced addition to 4-10 in the 2007-08 rule book. The FED added the sentence "The distance shall be measured from the forward foot/feet of the defender to the forward foot/feet of the ball handler." There was no mention of the addition in the front of the book or under "new rules changes" at the back. Iow, they just snuck the l'il mother in.

Can I say "mother"? Or should I say "father"?

So this is a pretty big change, or at least clarification, don't you think?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

So this is a pretty big change, or at least clarification, don't you think?

Well, personally I was never that precise about the 6-foot closely guarded thingy that I ever really worried about front feet, back feet, or any other feet. I just wasn't ever that good. If I thought the defender earned a count, I gave him one.

You know what I'm talking about. Nothing's changed.

[Y2Koach]

btw, this is a very informative discussion. thanks.

i wonder how Old School would call closely guarded...

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Well, personally I was never that precise about the 6-foot closely guarded thingy that I ever really worried about front feet, back feet, or any other feet. I just wasn't ever that good. If I thought the defender earned a count, I gave him one.

You know what I'm talking about. Nothing's changed.

Yep (I'm at least not as good as you) but from a strict reading of the rules I would say it gives the player with the ball about another foot or 2 before he's closely guarded if the defender is in good defensive position.

In real life who's gonna be looking at the feet in these situations to determine "closely guarded". If I'm looking at anybody's feet it's to catch travelling or OOB. If I'm in a closely guarded sitch I'm looking at bodies, arms and hands.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

In real life who's gonna be looking at the feet in these situations to determine "closely guarded". If I'm looking at anybody's feet it's to catch travelling or OOB. If I'm in a closely guarded sitch I'm looking at bodies, arms and hands.

Amen.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Nope, you're following a Texas interpretation. They're definitely not following the rule as written. There is nothing listed anywhere in the rules that states that a defender doesn't have to be doing anything but be within the 6 foot space.

If you still have the 2004-05 rule book, they had a POE on "closely guarded" that laid out the criteria used. Here's the relevant stuff:

1. Closely Guarded.
A: When To Start: A closely guarded situation occurs when a player in control of the ball in his or her team's front court, is guarded by an opponent who is within six feet of that player who is holding or dribbling the ball. It must also be emphasized that the defensive player must obtain a legal guarding position.
When To Stop: A closely-guarded count ends when no defensive player is within six feet.

That's it! They mention the different counts, beating a defender by head and shoulders, multiple defenders, etc.There's no mention anywhere that says that a defender has to be "actively" guarding and there never has been at any time that I know of.

So, Jurassic, not being a smart aleck here, and not necessarily disagreeing. Just wanting some clarification. I know this sounds like nit-picking words, but I think that it's important to get to the point of what the words mean. What's the difference between "actively guarding", which you say they don't require, and just plain ol' guarding, which I assume you'd agree is required?

[Adam]

Kinda like the difference between coaching and "actively coaching."

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

So, Jurassic, not being a smart aleck here, and not necessarily disagreeing. Just wanting some clarification. I know this sounds like nit-picking words, but I think that it's important to get to the point of what the words mean. What's the difference between "actively guarding", which you say they don't require, and just plain ol' guarding, which I assume you'd agree is required?

"Guarding" and "closely guarding" are both defined in the rule book. I don't have a clue what "actively guarding" means, so I can't possibly answer your question. That's what I've been saying. There is NO definition for "actively guarding" under the rules, and there never has been a definition for "actively guarding" under the rules that I've ever heard of. If somebody, like Texas, is using a concept called "actively guarding", then they're making up their own local criteria, not anything that the FED has ever issued.

Note that I'm also not saying that I disagree with the way that I think the Texas people are calling the play.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Kinda like the difference between coaching and "actively coaching."

Coaching is a warning and a "T" in Kansas. Actively coaching isn't.

Correct?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Coaching is a warning and a "T" in Kansas. Actively coaching isn't.

Correct?

Yup, assuming both are being done from a vertical position.

I'm still working out "dunking" as opposed to "actively dunking," though. I don't think even rainman is that smart.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Yup, assuming both are being done from a vertical position.

I'm still working out "dunking" as opposed to "actively dunking," though. I don't think even rainman is that smart.

Speaking of such........

No response yet to that e-mail I sent to the head poobah in Kansas. I can't really say that I blame her.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Speaking of such........

No response yet to that e-mail I sent to the head poobah in Kansas. I can't really say that I blame her.

We certainly live in an enlightened world when a mere woman can climb to the position of poobah.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

Regarding closely guarded...

the distance from the freethrow line to the top of the key is 4'9", correct?

Not on any court where I've ever reffed!

Remember - the FT line is measured from the backboard while the 3-pt line is measured from the center of the basket.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

There is nothing listed anywhere in the rules that states that a defender doesn't have to be doing anything but be within the 6 foot space.

Soooooo...B1 obtains LGP on A1 and is withinn the 6 foot distance. You start the 5 second count, and on 2, B1 turns around and now has his back to A1 while yelling at the post player to play better defense. You keeping that count going? He had LGP and is still within 6 feet, so it fits the rules. Not sure I would keep a count going on that one though. What'cha think boss?