Ending the closely guarded count

[JoeT]

Could some of you veterans weigh in to help me on this, please? On a dribble, when exactly do you END your hand-snap and closely guarded count? Is it the same under NF and NCAA rules? If the player is driving either (1) toward the basket or (2) toward the baseline and has "beaten" his defender (ie, they are shoulder-to-shoulder), does the count end?

Thanks in advance!!

Joe

[mick]

Originally posted by JoeT
Could some of you veterans weigh in to help me on this, please? On a dribble, when exactly do you END your hand-snap and closely guarded count? Is it the same under NF and NCAA rules? If the player is driving either (1) toward the basket or (2) toward the baseline and has "beaten" his defender (ie, they are shoulder-to-shoulder), does the count end?

Thanks in advance!!

Joe

Joe,
I've got the count going when the defender is approximately on a line between the ball handler and his/her goal .
NF and NCAA men are the same. NCAA women is holding only in frontcourt or backcourt.
1.>If the dribbler is going to the basket and the defender is on that line, my count continues.
2.> If the dribbler has beaten the defender, then the defender is not on that line, and my count ends. If they are shoulder-to-shoulder, then I look at the defender with respect to the "line" .
mick

[refjef40]

Good question!First NCAA and NFHS are the same.The rules make no allowances for driving to the hoop with a advantage.I personally won't call this if at the end of the count the player is about to move for a lay-up or a shot.I treat it like three seconds if the player is about to shoot as I hit three seconds I let it go.Other officials may differ in what they do and I would like to hear what they have to say.

[BktBallRef]

There are two schools of thought on this play.

The first one is taht as long as the defender stays within 6 feet of the dribbler after having established a legal guarding poistion, the count continues. It doesn't matter if the dribbler has beaten the defender on a drive to the basket. Pardon me but that's duck poop!

The second thought is that the count stops when the dribbler has beaten the defender to the basket and the defender is in pursuit, the count ends. I agree with this.

Here's why! When a defender is no longer in the path, between a the dribbler and the basket, you can no longer have a closely guarded count. Look a definition of guarding. Notice those three little words, "in the path"? Those three little words tell you that a player who isn't in a guarding position can't be closely guarding.

Now, for all those nay sayers out there, let me say this. There is no other clearly defined written rule on this play. That is, there's nothing to say that the count stops or the count continues. The rulebook doesn't spell out every single thing than occurs on the basketball court. If it did, it would be as big as an encyclopedia. The writers of the rulebook expect us to apply the rules with common sense and within the spirit and intent of the rules. Why does a defender guard a player with the ball? So he won't score. To apply the 5 second count to this sitch is to be a rule book litigater.

This came up at a local clinic this year. I emailed Dick Knox, Chairman of the NF Basketball Rules Committee and deputy director of the NCHSAA with the play. He agreed that the count should end when the defender is no longer in a guarding position. In fact, he was very adamant.

So let the debate begin!

[AK ref SE]

I look at like any other rule(say three seconds) By the letter of the law(rule) we could make that call all night long....... Closely guarded has the dribbler sat at the top of the key dribbling for say 4 seconds, and then decide to drive to the basket,has the defender been playing good defense or has the defender simply stood within six feet and twiddled his thumbs. I will normally stop my count once the dribbler has made a break for the basket, and in my mind has beaten the defender!!!
Common sense, flow of the game, experience, advantage/disadvantage


Thanks
AK ref SE

[Mark Padgett]

Just to semi-change the topic - why do we reward the defense with possession for playing good defense for five seconds? Big deal. The game is 32 minutes long. What's so great about standing within 6 feet of the ball handler with your thumb up you nose (which is what happens sometimes). Even if the defender is doing a good job of closely guarding, isn't five seconds a little extreme? I vote for going to 10 seconds - or even eliminating the rule altogether.

Let's say a team wants to stall because they have the lead. They give the ball to their tallest player who holds it above his head so no one else can get it. If this rule was eliminated, the only way the defense could do anything would be to foul. So what? At least this way you're not penalizing the offense for having a tall player. Size should be an advantage that gets rewarded, just like speed.

[gymrat]

Do you want to see a game in which the teams best player holds the ball (a la Anthony Mason) for 30 seconds and then shoots? This rule encourages a smoother game in which all 5 players are involved, instead of only the teams best player.

[Kelly Kinghorn]

I had a JUCO coach ask me the same question and I sent him copies of the legal guarding section of the NCAA rulebook. You know the part about what it takes to establish and maintain legal guarding position (4-32-1&2) and closely guarded violation (9-13-1b1). I believe that the NCAA has been very clear about this and I believe the NF has the same rule.

In a nutshell, break the 6 ft barrier or get past your man (so the defender is not in the path) and the count stops.

[hoopsrefBC]

great post everyone, it has helped me alot.

SH