case 10.5.1 Sit C

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by PYRef

The coach was not only at the table, he used it to lean on while he ate his sandwich during the game when he wasn't yelling at his team.

I hope it was an egg salad sandwich he got out of a vending machine that hadn't been plugged in for a couple of days. YUCCHHHH!!!

[just another ref]

I don't have a problem with this rule, but I don't think it is a big deal either way.
Coaches often communicate with the table while safely in the box. "HEY! HOW MANY FOULS DOES HE HAVE?"

[Back In The Saddle]

While I find the discussion interesting, how many are likely to call this? Just being out of the box doesn't get consistent enforcement. This seems like a potentially more volatile situation.

It seems like another heavy-handed attempt to fix in committee what some officials won't fix on the floor. And, like most such attempts, it will be mostly ignored, and cause problems when it isn't. Those officials who would have taken care of business mostly (IMHO) don't want the NFHS telling them when and how to take care of it. Those officials who wouldn't take care of business without the rule, likely won't take care of business even with it. A few unfortunate souls will call a T on this because they are supposed to, and it's not likely to go well for them.

BTW, in all my few years, I have very rarely ever had a problem with a coach at the table. First, they rarely go there. Second, when they do, there is usually a problem that needs addressing, and I go address it. Perhaps things work a little differently in the Carolinas.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Actually, I find that coaches (and others) often complain to me about things at the table. (many of which I cannot control)
The arrow is wrong. He's starting the clock late. etc.

That is actually a permissible reason for a coach to go to the table per 10-5-2.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

There was a POE on this several years ago. Our state rep was on the rules committee that year. He stated that coaches were creating problems when going to the table. They were distracting the table crew during live ball play. Thye were getting angry at the table officials when they didn't like whatever the issue was. And that is why he told us the rule was in place.

Originally Posted by rainmaker

I disagree. It's way, way too easy for the table person(proved by the home team, after all) to be hired, trained and supervised by the head coach and thus for the influence to be way too intense, even when there's no intention for it to be so. Furthermore, I've seen coaches attempt to manipulate the table person into change something, perhaps with the best intentions, but still incorrectly. If there's a problem with something in the book or on the scoreboard, there are appropriate channels for correcting that, and they don't include the coach being at the table. I really like this rule and think it's best for everyone.

I agree with both of these posts and think that this is why there is a difference at the NCAA level.

[Y2Koach]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

I think part of the basis for this rule is the expectation that if a coach continuously goes over to the table to "check on things" it might result in that coach asking the scorekeeper to "correct" stats and that the scorekeeper might think he's supposed to take direction on that from the coach.

Besides, the table crew has enough to concentrate on without being bugged all the time by coaches.

Sitting behind the scorers table of a Varsity game where I have players that Ive coached in the past on both teams, I saw a coach, team down by 15 near the end of the 3rd quarter and star player picks up 4th foul, go storming to the table yelling "he only has 3!!!" Game is stopped for about 10-15 minutes as the coach is screaming about how he has a count in his head of how many fouls his star players have and keeps asking his player "you only fouled 3 times, right?" The refs, coach, star player, and the 16 year old home team stat girl have a nice long discussion that basically boiled down to:

coach: HE ONLY HAS 3 FOULS!!!
ref 1: calm down coach, lets check the book
coach: I KNOW HE ONLY HAS 3, I KEEP TRACK OF THESE THINGS!! YOU ONLY FOULED 3 TIMES, RIGHT??
player: i think so. yeah, i should have 3
coach: SEE!! HE SHOULD HAVE 3!!! WHAT THE HELL DO YOU HAVE IN THE BOOK?!??!
stat girl: 4 coach
coach: HOW THE HELL DOES HE HAVE 4??!? HE ONLY HAS 3!!!
other coach: can we get this game going? and can you tell him to stop yelling at the young lady?
ref 2: we got this coach
coach: NO WAY HE HAS 4, HE HAS 3 FUC--- FRIGGIN FOULS!!!
ref 1: what do you have in the book?
stat girl: 4 fouls
ref 1: gotta go with the official book, coach
coach: ARE YOU SERIOUS??? THEYRE TRYING TO CHEAT!!! HE'S GOT 3!!!

etc, for a full 10-15 minutes. the assistant coach who is doing stats on the bench comes over, shows the refs his book. It looks like 3 fouls, 1 kind of smudged like it had been erased. He tells the refs, "i think in the first quarter, you called a charge and I initially thought it was a block, so thats why that foul was erased. He should only have 3". Mind you, if it was a previous foul, wouldnt the first box be erased and the subsequent foul just marked over it? anyways, long story short, after a long long delay, the game continues, player only has 3 fouls.

This is a coach that in every game, on every defensive possession, his opponent travels and sets illegal screens and his players never foul (even at the end of a game when they are fouling on purpose, he complains about foul calls). On every offensive possession, the defense is fouling and reaching and holding.

[mbyron]

Why do you allow that behavior? He's obviously begging for a couple quick T's. Why not give him what he wants?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

Sitting behind the scorers table of a Varsity game where I have players that Ive coached in the past on both teams, I saw a coach, team down by 15 near the end of the 3rd quarter and star player picks up 4th foul, go storming to the table yelling "he only has 3!!!" Game is stopped for about 10-15....

Horrible job by those officials.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

I saw a coach, team down by 15 near the end of the 3rd quarter and star player picks up 4th foul, go storming to the table yelling "he only has 3!!!"

I'd be pretty close to Ting him up just for that.

If the coach wants to argue for 15 minutes, he can shout at the wall in his locker room.

[Y2Koach]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

I'd be pretty close to Ting him up just for that.

If the coach wants to argue for 15 minutes, he can shout at the wall in his locker room.

I had no preference on which team won that game until he started screaming at that young lady. I was shocked that the refs didn't step in to defend her.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

I had no preference on which team won that game until he started screaming at that young lady. I was shocked that the refs didn't step in to defend her.

Yes, indeed. "Coach, you may talk to us civilly as we work this out, or you can spend the rest of the afternoon in the locker room. Take your pick."

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

HE'S GOT 3!!!

Really Coach? That's amazing. Most guys have only two!!!

And...if you don't think I'd really say this to a coach, you don't know me at all.