case 10.5.1 Sit C

[Y2Koach]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

That's easy. Coaches are restricted to the bench area and the coaching box, even during timeouts. The rule is clear that they can only go to the table for a possible correctable error. The coach can send a statistician to find out anything he needs to know for any other reason.

Yes, I would.

Nothing good can come from the coach going to the scorer's table.

would finding out how many fouls a player has count as non-correctable-error information seeking that could be trouble? What about a road team with limited staff (i.e. just one coach, no statistician, no assistants). I don't think its a black and white issue of coach at scorers table = bad. but for the most part, i do agree that coaches shouldn't loiter at the scorers table and that most coaches that do end up there are up to no good, so keeping them away as much as possible (with some common sense discretion) is best.

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

would finding out how many fouls a player has count as non-correctable-error information seeking that could be trouble? What about a road team with limited staff (i.e. just one coach, no statistician, no assistants). I don't think its a black and white issue of coach at scorers table = bad. but for the most part, i do agree that coaches shouldn't loiter at the scorers table and that most coaches that do end up there are up to no good, so keeping them away as much as possible (with some common sense discretion) is best.

I agree with some common sense discretion a coach can get the information they seek without going to the table. i.e. from the coaching box he or she can communicate with the table. How many fouls does # 10 have or ask the player themselves. If a team travels with limitations then the coach should be aware of his or her limitiation as well. JMO.

Why should the officials have to compensate for shortcomings?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

would finding out how many fouls a player has count as non-correctable-error information seeking that could be trouble?

That's not a correctable error.

What about a road team with limited staff (i.e. just one coach, no statistician, no assistants). I don't think its a black and white issue of coach at scorers table = bad. but for the most part, i do agree that coaches shouldn't loiter at the scorers table and that most coaches that do end up there are up to no good, so keeping them away as much as possible (with some common sense discretion) is best.

Then you tell an official and allow him to address it.

The coach has no business at the table.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Because nothing good can come from a copach going to the table. If it's not for a correctable error, then he's likely going to complain about soemthing.

AHEM!!!! DON'T YOU AGREE!?!?!

JMO, but no, I don't agree if it's during a time out or at the quarter.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

I don't think its a black and white issue of coach at scorers table = bad.

It really doesn't matter what anyone thinks, be they coach or official. The only thing that really matters in black and white is that coach at scorers table = technical foul.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

It really doesn't matter what anyone thinks, be they coach or official. The only thing that really matters in black and white is that coach at scorers table = technical foul.

I don't think Koach (or I) was commenting on the rule. He was addressing Bktballref's comment that seemed to say "coach at table = bad". I think (although I could easily be wrong) that Koach knows the rule at this point, and was merely disagreeing with the seemingly "black and white" judgment that it's always bad for the coach to be at the table.

Actually it is 10-4-4 under NCAA rules, and they allow a lot more leeway than the Fed.

NCAA 10-4-4d
A coach, team member or team attendant may leave the bench area at any time to point out a scoring or timing mistake, or to request a timeout to ascertain whether a correctable error needs to be rectified.


NCAA 10-4-4e
A coach or team attendant may leave the bench area to seek information from the official scorer or official timer during a timeout or an intermission.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I don't think Koach (or I) was commenting on the rule. He was addressing Bktballref's comment that seemed to say "coach at table = bad". I think (although I could easily be wrong) that Koach knows the rule at this point, and was merely disagreeing with the seemingly "black and white" judgment that it's always bad for the coach to be at the table.

Evidently the NFHS disagrees with both of you.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Evidently the NFHS disagrees with both of you.

That assumes a lot.

Maybe the NFHS just doesn't want to force officials to judge the intent of the coach in those situations.

By rule, I agree with you that the coach is never allowed at the table. But in the real world, it's simply not true that it's always bad when the coach goes to the table.

BTW, a Styx reference?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

By rule, I agree with you that the coach is never allowed at the table. But in the real world, it's simply not true that it's always bad when the coach goes to the table.

Oh, does that mean that it's good that officials are ignoring plainly written rules? Or is it good that coaches are ignoring plainly written rules? Is it good that a coach is forcing an official to make a decision as to whether or not he/she should let the coach skate from what is supposed to be a no-brainer "T"? If not one those, please point me to where I can find the good side of any situation where a coach is discovered being at the scorers table illegally?

Sorry, Skippy, but any situation where a coach puts us in a position where we have to decide whether to follow a plainly written rule or not is never a good situation. And I say that noting that there are situations where I would rather see a discrete warning used in lieu of a "T".

In the real world, if you're doing an NCAA game and the coach is illegally out of the their coaching box, that wouldn't always be bad either, I take it?

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Oh, does that mean that it's good that officials are ignoring plainly written rules?

Where the heck did this question come from?!?! Who is talking about ignoring the rule? Certainly not me!! I never said that any official should ignore the rule.

What I disagree with is Bktballref's blanket statement (and gross overgeneralization) that:

nothing good can come from a copach going to the table. If it's not for a correctable error, then he's likely going to complain about soemthing.

I just think this is false. Should he be whacked? Yes, because that's what the rule says. But to say that "nothing good" can possibly come from the coach being at the table is false in the real world.

(That's what you get for trying to post intelligently at 1:02 am. You should've been watching the end of "Field of Dreams" on AMC instead.)

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I just think this is false. Should he be whacked? Yes, because that's what the rule says. But to say that "nothing good" can possibly come from the coach being at the table is false in the real world.

I iterate...again...as opposed to reiterating.....

What possible good can come out of a coach being at the scorers table illegally in the real world?

The only way that I'd watch Field of Dreams again is if the corn burnt down in the fourth inning, taking all of the old goobers and Kevin Costner with it.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

What possible good can come out of a coach being at the scorers table illegally in the real world?

Ok, I see the reason for our misunderstanding. I'm sorry. This whole conversation started because somebody asked WHY the head coach can't approach the table (with some exceptions). The origninal poster asked:

Originally Posted by Splute

can anyone honestly tell me why a coach cannot inquire for this info during these instances, but anyone else can?

I think Bktballref's comment (nothing good can come from it, he's just there to complain) was an attempt to answer that question. Personally, I don't think that coaches go to the table to complain. I think they normally go to check and/or verify something.

So my comment should've said, "If it weren't against the rules, I don't think there would be too many problems with coaches going to the table". Your comments were all made with the understandable assumption that the act itself was illegal and therefore bad. My comments were made with the assumption that we were talking about the actions at the table, rather than the coach breaking a rule to get to the table.

So yes, boys and girls, it's bad -- very very bad -- for a head coach to be at the scorer's table, except in very rare and well-defined situations. However, if it weren't against the rules, I don't think very many bad things would happen by allowing the coach to be at the table briefly to check something in the book.

Sorry for the confusion.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

However, if it weren't against the rules, I don't think very many bad things would happen by allowing the coach to be at the table briefly to check something in the book.

I think part of the basis for this rule is the expectation that if a coach continuously goes over to the table to "check on things" it might result in that coach asking the scorekeeper to "correct" stats and that the scorekeeper might think he's supposed to take direction on that from the coach.

Besides, the table crew has enough to concentrate on without being bugged all the time by coaches.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

By rule, I agree with you that the coach is never allowed at the table. But in the real world, it's simply not true that it's always bad when the coach goes to the table.

Where did I say "it's always bad when the coach goes to the table"?

I said, "Nothing good can come from a coach going to the table."

That doesn't mean someone is going to get killed.

Why should he need to go to the table for other than a correctable error? If he has an issue, he should approach an official or have a stat person or team manager go to the table.

The NFHS doesn't want coaches going to the table. That fact is very evident.