2-man To question...

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) In my area, we simply tell out officials to call fouls that are fouls, without worrying about who the "star" is. It ain't the NBA. Obviously, that's different than your area.

2) Of course you should know excess TO requests. The scorer is supposed to tell you when a team has taken it's last TO. That's the whole object of that particular rule.

1. Now you're not comparing apples to apples. You've neglected to say what you tell your officials when two people attack the ball and both seemingly commit a foul. Do you tell your officials to "pick one"? Which person? The taller one? The shorter one?
2. The scorer usually does tell me when a team has used their last timeout, because I do pre-game this with them. However, I've been at this long enough to also mentally keep track (most times ) of how many TOs have been used. So, when those times come that the scorer doesn't let me know (the scorers in my home board are not perfect), I "ask" them how many TOs remain. Sometimes I'm wrong, but usually I'm right. Having said that, my achilles heel is that darned arrow. I still use the silly whistle in my pocket trick.

[Splute]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Actually, scoring errors can be corrected at any time until the end of the game. No need for 2-10 at all. Use 2-11-11.

I was referring to failure to award a meritted free throw (bonus sit). did I quote the wrong rule? curses... thought i had that memorized.

[Vinski]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

1. Now you're not comparing apples to apples. You've neglected to say what you tell your officials when two people attack the ball and both seemingly commit a foul. Do you tell your officials to "pick one"? Which person? The taller one? The shorter one?

Aren't you describing a multiple foul?

[Splute]

Originally Posted by Vinski

Aren't you describing a multiple foul?

How many actually call "multiple" fouls? I do see double fouls, but have never witnessed a multiple called. I am certain it happens; perhaps during a drive to the basket, but have not seen anyone call it.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Splute

No, not for implied favoritism, for knowledge of where I am in the game. How many t.o.'s each coach has remaining. Are we approaching a possible extra time out call? If a player is in foul trouble it keeps me aware that we may soon have an interupter to replace a player and I would like to expedite the process and manage the remaining players. In my mind it keeps me focused on the game. Based on your question, do you feel this information is not necessary? Am I considering things that are wasting my time?

Most of what you are looking for is on the scoreboard, including the player and # of fouls that player has. Team fouls are always up, some clocks show timeouts left (TOL). If the team fouls are not up on the clock, I would go to the table to check for this periodically, and this only. The rest I don't care about. I don't care about timeouts until the last minute of the game and the only thing I care then is if they got a timeout left. How many they have, I don't need to know that information. Some officials will tell you this team has 3 and this team has 2. I'm like so what! The only thing I need to know is when they don't have any left, then we need to alert them. Other than that, it's wasted energy, imho....

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Now you're not comparing apples to apples. You've neglected to say what you tell your officials when two people attack the ball and both seemingly commit a foul. Do you tell your officials to "pick one"? Which person? The taller one? The shorter one?
.[/LIST]

Yes, I am. We tell our officials never to call any fouls at any time by the "star" system. We ain't the NBA. If 2 fouls are committed at the same time, they certainly can decide to assign only one foul if they want to, but they better not be using your "star" criteria to do so.

I can understand your having to do so if your assignor wants it that way. You don't really have much choice. I just don't agree with that particular assignor's philosophy.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yes, I am. We tell our officials never to call any fouls at any time by the "star" system. We ain't the NBA. If 2 fouls are committed at the same time, they certainly can decide to assign only one foul if they want to, but they better not be using your "star" criteria to do so.

That's fine. And again, my question to you is: how to you advise your officials which foul to call? Until you answer my question, you have missed my point.

Edit: you've only told me what system your officials don't use.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Splute

How many actually call "multiple" fouls? I do see double fouls, but have never witnessed a multiple called. I am certain it happens; perhaps during a drive to the basket, but have not seen anyone call it.

Never a multiple, as I recall.

I've called a false double twice. Once in camp with a P. Once by myself: B1 has roots and as A1 is airborne, gets a nice loud slap across the arm from B2. Then, A1 throws a body-strike onto B1.

[Splute]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Never a multiple, as I recall.

I've called a false double twice. Once in camp with a P. Once by myself: B1 has roots and as A1 is airborne, gets a nice loud slap across the arm from B2. Then, A1 throws a body-strike onto B1.

while reading the definition in the rules, it seemed like more time would pass before the second foul, in my mind anyway. this is a good example. i will store it away for future use. thanks...

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Without intending to start a new direction for this thread because we've discussed the following to death many times, I still can't believe anyone is "told" or practices intentionally not calling a deserved foul on a "star" player based on the game situation. This is truly making a mockery of the game and calling the game in a manner that is absolutely unfair and biased. I don't care what rationalization you use, it is totally wrong.

I think you are taking the comments out of context. I did not say any of this that you have suggested in any way. I think knowing this kind of thing is a knowledge thing than calling something different. The reason I want to know who the stars are because anything that happens to them is going to be the topic of conversation with the coach. I had a coach one time claim we were not calling enough fouls in favor of his "All-Americans" (his words not mine). I do not think I have read anyone else suggest we do not call the game properly either. I think most people unfairly try to turn this philosophy into a nefarious practice that is not there.

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Remember - if we call the game the same from beginning to end and call it as evenly as humanly possible, the play of the players will determine the outcome and the team that plays the best will win - and that's what's supposed to happen. If any player, and I do mean any player, commits one more foul than what's allowed, that player has fouled out and doesn't deserve to continue to play in the game - PERIOD! This is called having the quality of play by a player determine that players effectiveness in the game.

And I would like you to find a single quote in which I said any different or anyone else (please do not refer to the village idiot on this topic) for that matter.

I would also suggest that the end of the game is likely considered a more important part of the game than the very beginning. Considering that usually what happens at the end gets magnified as compared to what happens at the beginning. If I screw up a foul call on the very first play of the game that will not be remembered if the last call of the game was made correctly. For me I want to have as much information so I can stay focused. I also want my calls to be solid near the end if I have not had the best effort the rest of the game.

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

OK - now I'll tell you how I really feel about this subject.

Now what cha got?

Peace

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Now what cha got?

Rut - who ever said I was referring to you? I'd consider it an honor to work any game with you. Oh yeah - you'd have to provide air fare and per diem.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Never a multiple, as I recall.

I've called a false double twice. Once in camp with a P. Once by myself: B1 has roots and as A1 is airborne, gets a nice loud slap across the arm from B2. Then, A1 throws a body-strike onto B1.

Given the definition of false-double, you've probably called more than 2.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Rut - who ever said I was referring to you? I'd consider it an honor to work any game with you. Oh yeah - you'd have to provide air fare and per diem.

You did not have to be referring to me at all. I am very sorry for being presumptive.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

That's fine. And again, my question to you is: how to you advise your officials which foul to call? Until you answer my question, you have missed my point.

Edit: you've only told me what system your officials don't use.

What each official chooses to call if there are 2 fouls committed on the same player at approximately the same time is up to the individual official, as long as they NEVER go the "star" route. The correct call probably is a multiple foul, but nobody really wants to see one of those called either....unless the defenders are both putting someone into the fourth row. The criteria usually used is to try and decide if one foul occurred slightly before the other, or if the contact from one foul was more severe than the other foul. That will usually take care of the situation. After that, I don't care if they flip a coin, as long as they DON'T use the "star" logic.

To be quite honest, I've never heard of another association instructing their officials to call it that way. Anybody else in the same position as Juggler?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Given the definition of false-double, you've probably called more than 2.

They're common as hell actually. The usual one is a foul of some kind(personal or technical) called after an initial foul(personal or technical) was called, but before the clock starts next. It could be a technical foul for a coach complaining or a player retaliating, double unsporting technicals on players, fouls during FT's, etc. The only other criteria needed is that you have fouls by both teams.