2-man To question...

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by Splute

No, not for implied favoritism, for knowledge of where I am in the game. How many t.o.'s each coach has remaining. Are we approaching a possible extra time out call? If a player is in foul trouble it keeps me aware that we may soon have an interupter to replace a player and I would like to expedite the process and manage the remaining players. In my mind it keeps me focused on the game. Based on your question, do you feel this information is not necessary? Am I considering things that are wasting my time?

I would say as an official you would be wasting your time with the minute stuff. The table will notify you at the appropriate time. I would just say officiate the game.

[mick]

Originally Posted by Splute

No, not for implied favoritism, for knowledge of where I am in the game. How many t.o.'s each coach has remaining. Are we approaching a possible extra time out call? If a player is in foul trouble it keeps me aware that we may soon have an interupter to replace a player and I would like to expedite the process and manage the remaining players. In my mind it keeps me focused on the game. Based on your question, do you feel this information is not necessary? Am I considering things that are wasting my time?

Splute,
If it makes you feel better, more confortable, then that's what is most important, I s'pose. Personally, I do my best to stay as far away from the table as possible, and, unless I have something, or my partner(s) has something, I try to stay away from partner(s), too.

Away from everyone and "dead ball officiating" is where I regain my focus, not by talking to other folks.

[JugglingReferee]

In my neck of the woods, we're told to know how many are on the star player.

Case in point: Doing a V game with big home court playoff implications. Two players foul the PG when full court pressing. I picked the non-star player as the fouler, as the star player already had 4. Is it correct? In your area, it might be. In my area: it was exactly as Rome wanted.

Same goes for TOs. We're told we should know excess TO requests before they're granted.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Splute

Wouldn't a T.O. be a good time to do this? I also check the score at breaks to hopefully avoid possible errors later. Any other suggestions on administrative techniques? Are there routines that many of you follow?

Good advice. This has saved me more than once.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Splute

1)Are we approaching a possible extra time out call?

2) If a player is in foul trouble it keeps me aware that we may soon have an interupter to replace a player and I would like to expedite the process and manage the remaining players.

2) Part of the scorer's job is to notify the closest official when a team has taken it's last TO, so that the official can then inform the coach of that team. Just make sure pre-game that the scorer will be doing his job properly and forget about TO's.

2) What difference does knowing how many fouls a particular player has really make? You're going to call a foul if it occurs anyway, aren't you? And if you call the foul and a player does foul out, no matter what you're going to have to "expedite the process". Nothing really changes, no matter what the circumstances, so why waste time tracking fouls?

[Splute]

I am starting with Sub Varsity of course and have heard many horror stories regarding poor books and clock, etc. I am trying to find ways to minimize these issues. Perhaps they really are minor in the big scheme and team fouls is sufficient. I try to make a point to see if the clock starts / stops and AP is changed. Keep the advice coming.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I probably shouldn't respond, but FWIW, I find your explanation more confusing than the other. For example, I have no idea what "table side, back of circle center court" means.

In any event, I'm sure that the OP now knows where to stand (by the book, and recognizing that it might be different in his / her association).

Kind of my point Bob, without the help of visual aids which the book shows you, which we both indicated we don't have. It is challenging to say the least to say all of this in a few words. To me, sometimes the fewer the words, the more difficiult it is for me to comprehend, even though the definition is precise. On the other hand, too many words can have the same effect, but if i had a choice, more is better. Again, not trying to get into a pissing match, just trying to make the point a little clearer for those that may not have their books or those that are truely interested in knowing.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Old School

Kind of my point Bob, without the help of visual aids which the book shows you, which we both indicated we don't have. It is challenging to say the least to say all of this in a few words. To me, sometimes the fewer the words, the more difficiult it is for me to comprehend, even though the definition is precise. On the other hand, too many words can have the same effect, but if i had a choice, more is better. Again, not trying to get into a pissing match, just trying to make the point a little clearer for those that may not have their books or those that are truely interested in knowing.

Yaayyy!!

Sigh.....


(Sorry - I couldn't resist.)

[Splute]

Thanks guys. I see your point. Good tableside conversation before the game and focus on my job during the game. I suppose you really need to trust that everyone will do their job to the best of their ability.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

1) Case in point: Doing a V game with big home court playoff implications. Two players foul the PG when full court pressing. I picked the non-star player as the fouler, as the star player already had 4. Is it correct? In your area, it might be. In my area: it was exactly as Rome wanted.

2) Same goes for TOs. We're told we should know excess TO requests before they're granted.

1) In my area, we simply tell out officials to call fouls that are fouls, without worrying about who the "star" is. It ain't the NBA. Obviously, that's different than your area.

2) Of course you should know excess TO requests. The scorer is supposed to tell you when a team has taken it's last TO. That's the whole object of that particular rule.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Splute

I am starting with Sub Varsity of course and have heard many horror stories regarding poor books and clock, etc. I am trying to find ways to minimize these issues. Perhaps they really are minor in the big scheme and team fouls is sufficient. I try to make a point to see if the clock starts / stops and AP is changed. Keep the advice coming.

Your biggest problem usually at this level will be getting the scorer to track the bonus' properly and inform you correctly. Time-outs and foul-outs take care of themselves. You have to trust the scorer to enter the right #s on fouls and keep the correct count of TO's. You can't do their jobs.

Keeping an eye on the clock and the arrow is always a good idea though at any level.

[Splute]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Your biggest problem usually at this level will be getting the scorer to track the bonus' properly and inform you correctly. Time-outs and foul-outs take care of themselves. You have to trust the scorer to enter the right #s on fouls and keep the correct count of TO's. You can't do their jobs.

Keeping an eye on the clock and the arrow is always a good idea though at any level.

sounds like a good opportunity to use rule 2-10; if caught in time. Just when you think you will never have that in your game..... hum. Thanks.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Splute

I am starting with Sub Varsity of course and have heard many horror stories regarding poor books and clock, etc. I am trying to find ways to minimize these issues. Perhaps they really are minor in the big scheme and team fouls is sufficient. I try to make a point to see if the clock starts / stops and AP is changed. Keep the advice coming.

I disagree with JR when he says it is pointless to know the foul status of some players, but that is another conversation for another day. But at the Sub Varsity level your games are not likely going to be in the media coverage or talked about beyond a score given on a website that is not something you really need to know that closely at that level. Also if you are in tuned to the game, you will realize you have called a certain number of fouls on a specific player anyway.

All those things you talked about do not need a conversation with the table to figure those things out. The table is supposed to inform you the timeout situation (and only when they are out of timeouts by the way). If the table does not tell you, I personally would not worry about it. Coaches should know how many timeouts they have anyway. They called them and they are always next to the table to ask if they are unsure.

The main reason I think many have a problem with this, you do not want to get dragged into a conversation that you really do not want to have (which a coach for example) at that time. If a coach is really mad and you are by the table, it is harder to avoid a T as opposed to if you are standing near mid-court and they have to come out to get you. There are always exceptions, but I would not want to make a habit for me having to go to the table for everything.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Splute

sounds like a good opportunity to use rule 2-10; if caught in time. Just when you think you will never have that in your game..... hum. Thanks.

Actually, scoring errors can be corrected at any time until the end of the game. No need for 2-10 at all. Use 2-11-11.

[Mark Padgett]

Without intending to start a new direction for this thread because we've discussed the following to death many times, I still can't believe anyone is "told" or practices intentionally not calling a deserved foul on a "star" player based on the game situation. This is truly making a mockery of the game and calling the game in a manner that is absolutely unfair and biased. I don't care what rationalization you use, it is totally wrong.

Remember - if we call the game the same from beginning to end and call it as evenly as humanly possible, the play of the players will determine the outcome and the team that plays the best will win - and that's what's supposed to happen. If any player, and I do mean any player, commits one more foul than what's allowed, that player has fouled out and doesn't deserve to continue to play in the game - PERIOD! This is called having the quality of play by a player determine that players effectiveness in the game.

OK - now I'll tell you how I really feel about this subject.