Flop / No contact / travel

[Y2Koach]

Team A is losing by 20+ (score probably doesnt matter). Team B's first unit has taken several good charges in help defense on the baseline throughout the game. With about 3 minutes left, Team B puts subs into the game. A1 beats B1 along the baseline and drive to the goal. B2 comes over to help and sets up to take the charge. A1 anticipates the charge and pulls up for a jumpshot as B2 begins to fall backwards anticipating a charge. A1 senses that he might land on B2 and braces for an akward fall, never releases the ball for a shot. How should this type of situation be officiated? thanks.

[just another ref]

If, in the judgment of the official, this is a deliberate act of deception, it could be called a technical foul. 10-3-7: A player shall not commit an unsporting foul.
This includes.......faking being fouled.....


What I get out of the description you give is B1 flinching away from contact. If this is the case, I think there is no question that traveling would be the call.

[Y2Koach]

Here's a better description of the scene if it helps with any insights on this situation: A1 is in the air, B2 is on the floor, A1 decides not to shoot and lands holding the ball legs straddled over B2 then hops over him out of bounds. B2 fell over with no contact having occured, anticipating a charge.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

Here's a better description of the scene if it helps with any insights on this situation: A1 is in the air, B2 is on the floor, A1 decides not to shoot and lands holding the ball legs straddled over B2 then hops over him out of bounds. B2 fell over with no contact having occured, anticipating a charge.

It is not illegal to anticipate contact and attempt to lessen it by giving ground. Moving/leaning backwards does not negate legal guarding position. It is only illegal to fake being fouled. In your situation, the official would have to make a decision as to which of the above actions the defender undertook. If the official does not believe that B2 faked being fouled, then the correct call is traveling.

It may have been a nice sporting move for A1 to dodge landing on B2. He may have been concerned about injuring his opponent. Of course, he may also have been primarily concerned with not injuring himself, say twisting or breaking his ankle. There is no way to tell. As an official, I would try to make the best judgment of B2's actions that I could and simply be thankful that neither player was hurt.

[Y2Koach]

thanks for your input. It was a weird looking play, and when the kid landed, no whistle blew for a couple seconds. I wasnt sure what would be the correct call, the kids just seemed to laugh it off a little (Team B because it was a young guy trying to take charges like the starters and totally missing it, Team A cuz A1 jumped, landed, jumped again and kinda ran out of bounds with the ball, with no immediate whistle).

So basically an official should be judging whether the defender was "giving ground" to lessen impact and just fell over, or was faking getting hit to draw a charge call?

What would the call be if A1 landed on B2 upon finishing his shot? No LGP while laying on the ground? I could imagine that situation being dangerous for both parties involved. Hopefully this might get an interesting discussion going when everyone is awake tomorrow without any name calling or crazy message board drama.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

What would the call be if A1 landed on B2 upon finishing his shot? No LGP while laying on the ground? I could imagine that situation being dangerous for both parties involved. Hopefully this might get an interesting discussion going when everyone is awake tomorrow without any name calling or crazy message board drama.

Your play may spark some good discussion. For starters I would direct you to a recent post of JR's on the NFHS forum.

Originally Posted by Woody

This is an old case book play that was removed a few years ago for some reason. Afaik the logic behind the ruling is still in effect.

PLAY:B1 attempts to steal the ball from stationary A1 who is holding the ball. B1 misses the ball and falls to the floor. In dribbling away, A1 contacts B1's leg, loses control of the ball and falls to the floor.
RULING: No infraction or foul has occurred and play continues. Unless B1 made an effort to trip or block A1, he/she is entitled to a position on the court even if it is momentarily lying on the floor after falling down.

Sooooo, no-call in NFHS. Legal guarding position doesn't come into the call.Rule 4-23-1 does--"Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent."

Note that NCAA calls it differently.

Here is the NCAA ruling:
Guarding
4-33-4a A.R. 91 B1 slips to the floor in the free-throw lane. A1 (with his/her back to B1, who is prone) receives a pass, turns and, in his or her attempt to drive to the basket, trips and falls over B1. RULING: Foul on B1, who has taken an illegal defensive position.

[Nevadaref]

An additional point is that a player must attain a position on the floor before an opponent leaves his feet.

4-23-4 . . . Guarding an opponent with the ball or a stationary opponent without the ball:
a. No time or distance is required to obtain an initial legal position.
b. If the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard must have obtained legal position before the opponent left the floor.

CONTACT SITUATIONS
10.6.1 SITUATION A: B1 takes a certain spot on the court before A1 jumps in the air to catch a pass: (a) A1 lands on B1; or (b) B1 moves to a new spot while A1 is airborne. A1 lands on one foot and then charges into B1. RULING: In (a) and (b), the foul is on A1. (4-7)


10.6.1 SITUATION C: B1 is standing behind the plane of the backboard before A1 jumps for a lay-up shot. The forward momentum causes airborne shooter A1 to charge into B1. RULING: B1 is entitled to the position obtained legally before A1 left the floor. If the ball goes through the basket before or after the contact occurs, the player-control foul cancels the goal. However, if B1 moves into the path of A1 after A1 has left the floor, the foul is on B1. B1's foul on the airborne shooter is a foul during the act of shooting. If the shot is successful, one free throw is awarded and if it is unsuccessful, two free throws result. (4-19-1, 6; 6-7-4; 10 Penalty 2, 5a)

[Mountaineer]

IMO, at that point in the game, with a twenty point spread - I'm calling a turnover for travelling, getting the ball back in play and moving on. A technical for that call would be a game interrupter. With the score out of hand and time expiring - I'm trying to protect kids from being injured and getting the clock moving. Neither coach wants to keep this one going either - time to get out of Dodge.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

IMO, at that point in the game, with a twenty point spread - I'm calling a turnover for travelling, getting the ball back in play and moving on. A technical for that call would be a game interrupter. With the score out of hand and time expiring - I'm trying to protect kids from being injured and getting the clock moving. Neither coach wants to keep this one going either - time to get out of Dodge.

Agreed, easy traveling call to make. Forget the score ( although it helps here), if a player goes up to shoot and doesn't and comes down with the ball, he just travel.

With that being said, there's nothing wrong with being smart. You're up by 20, why risk getting injured. All the player had to do was toss the ball towards the basket and play continues, then, I would have nothing, no whistle. I talked about this at great length in another thread about block charge calls and what coaches are teaching. I did not realized until engaging this topic that it is such a big philosophy issue in how this game is to be played and coached.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

Agreed, easy traveling call to make. Forget the score ( although it helps here), if a player goes up to shoot and doesn't and comes down with the ball, he just travel.

With that being said, there's nothing wrong with being smart. You're up by 20, why risk getting injured. All the player had to do was toss the ball towards the basket and play continues, then, I would have nothing, no whistle. I talked about this at great length in another thread about block charge calls and what coaches are teaching. I did not realized until engaging this topic that it is such a big philosophy issue in how this game is to be played and coached.

Aside from the fact that the would-be-shooter was actually down by 20....
Also, how do you not know how much coaches are teaching the skill of drawing a charge? Oh, wait, never mind....

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

A technical for that call would be a game interrupter.

Isn't any technical foul at any time during the game a "game interrupter"?

[Splute]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Isn't any technical foul at any time during the game a "game interrupter"?

true dat, true dat.....

question: Would you ever consider B1 falling down in front of A1 driving to score a foul?... especially if it appeared intentional? A1 would then be concerned about his landing and it would certainly create a disadvantage to A1's approach.....

[Adam]

Nope. It's legal unless you think he was trying to induce a false call from the official

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Isn't any technical foul at any time during the game a "game interrupter"?

No. A "game interrrupter" is an unnecessary (albeit technically correct) call.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Aside from the fact that the would-be-shooter was actually down by 20....

Good point Snaqs, so the shooter was the team down in the game, doesn't change the fact though. He still traveled. You still have to judge the play and there was no contact on the play. The shooter choice not to shoot.

Now, if A1 would have shot, missed, and came down on the guy. I could call a block on B2 who's now on the floor, but A1 got to shoot the ball. If he doesn't, my hands are tied, I can't make up stuff.

Now here's where I'm going to contradict myself. In college men's, B2 flops and falls to the floor untouched, however, he gives this loud, OOOHHHH!!!!! That will be a technical foul or a block, each and everytime he does that. The reason, he's trying to show me up by getting me to make a call in his favor even if there was no contact. Players like that bring BS to your game. He needs to be addressed. What I will do is try to get him out the game asap. When he flops and the degree of contact was not as significant as he's making it out to be. Block on him everytime until he stops that BS.