Flop Question

[lmeadski]

Player A has LGP on Player B. Player A anticipates contact from B and begins to flop but has not moved feet. B Makes contact with A as A is falling to the floor in a flop. Both players end up on floor in a heap. Has A lost his LGP via his flop or has B incurred a charge?

[Adam]

A defender may move to absorb contact, and this movement may include moving backwards.
"Flopping" is only illegal because it's an attempt to induce a call from the referee who may not otherwise call it. This is a charge, from the way I read it.

[Mark Padgett]

Wait for it - OS will say it's a block because player A didn't have LGP before player B left his house for the gym.

Personally, I have a no call - there was no mention of reconstructive surgery for either player.

[JRutledge]

It has been taught that at the camps I have attended recently is to make a call on someone. Now if a defender clearly flops, I am more inclined to call a block. When I say flop I am talking about when a player is trying to embellish the contact by yelling and exaggerating the level of contact. That does not mean I will never call a PC fouls. This just means that if a player has to act like they got ran over, then I am likely not to think the contact was legit.

Here is a little tip someone told me a long time ago. When a defender truly gets run over, their feet are not very likely to stay in the same place. Usually a defender that gets ran into by a ball handler is likely to go flying even if they try to absorb the blow. A player that is clearly flopping usually their feet are in just about the same place.

Peace

[CoachP]

Both players ending up on the floor in a heap (in all likelyhood) means the contact was gonna be severe enough to knock A1 out of any LGP advantage he had anyways (And no, I'm not advocating severity=foul), but have to see it to decide PC or no-call though.

To me a flop is best described as more of "A1 anticipates incidental contact from B" and then falls to the floor all alone at the contact.....

Saw a T for that last year....

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by lmeadski

Player A has LGP on Player B. Player A anticipates contact from B and begins to flop but has not moved feet. B Makes contact with A as A is falling to the floor in a flop. Both players end up on floor in a heap. Has A lost his LGP via his flop or has B incurred a charge?

For me it's a matter of judgment. You have to judge how much contact, and also how it might have turned out if there hadn't been any flop. If there's no contact at all, I think it's a great no-call. But if there's some contact, was it initiated by the dribbler, or was it incidental? Would it have clearly been more if the defender hadn't flopped? If you think you can get away with penalizing the defender for flopping by a no-call, I think that's the best choice, imo. When the defender complains you say, "Do you know it's illegal to try to make it look worse than it really was?" or "You leaned away, and the contact was incidental". But if the flop starts pretty late, and there is enough contact, or clearly would have been, for a call, you can call it, but then say quietly to the defender, "That was close to a flop. Be sure you stand and take it next time."

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by CoachP

Both players ending up on the floor in a heap (in all likelyhood) means the contact was gonna be severe enough to knock A1 out of any LGP advantage he had anyways(And no, I'm not advocating severity=foul), but have to see it to decide PC or no-call though.

To me a flop is best described as more of "A1 anticipates incidental contact from B" and then falls to the floor all alone at the contact.....

Saw a T for that last year....

That's actually irrelevant coach. You adjudicate the legality of a player's LGP at the point of contact, not where they end up after the contact.

A flop is defined as faking a foul. It's penalized as such under NFHS rule 10-3-7(f)--"faking being fouled".If the contact was sufficient at the point of contact to actually have a foul, you then make up your mind whether that foul is on the offensive or defensive player.

Flop---->little of no contact, faking a foul,technical foul or no call/possible warning.
Block/charge-----> sufficient illegal contact to have a personal foul, either a block or charge.

That's the usual way that it's been taught(at least in my experience).

[Adam]

Originally Posted by CoachP

Both players ending up on the floor in a heap (in all likelyhood) means the contact was gonna be severe enough to knock A1 out of any LGP advantage he had anyways (And no, I'm not advocating severity=foul), but have to see it to decide PC or no-call though.

To me a flop is best described as more of "A1 anticipates incidental contact from B" and then falls to the floor all alone at the contact.....

Saw a T for that last year....

I actually called a T on this a couple years ago, and I'm the only one I know of who's called it.
That said, it was a 4th grade YMCA game. I'd already warned the kid and the coach, and he was flopping when the ball handler was about three feet away from him. It was so blatant and obvious it needed called. Only one I've ever called.

[blindzebra]

What you have to judge is did B1's falling back, actually cause the contact that sent both players to the floor.

Did A1 pass through the area B1's torso would have been had he/she not bailed? Or did A1 pull up and the only reason they hit the floor was because B1, basically tripped them by flopping?

I've had a no-call on this before.

I've had a block on this before.

I've had a PC on it before too, and every time I told the defender not to try to sell it anymore.

[emtp]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

What you have to judge is did B1's falling back, actually cause the contact that sent both players to the floor.

Did A1 pass through the area B1's torso would have been had he/she not bailed? Or did A1 pull up and the only reason they hit the floor was because B1, basically tripped them by flopping?

I've had a no-call on this before.

I've had a block on this before.

I've had a PC on it before too, and every time I told the defender not to try to sell it anymore.

I agree w/ Blindzebra, had all 3, something else to consider is speed and path of offinsive player, and did you ask what your partner thought.

[jeffpea]

here's a thought from a veteran D1 official who has worked NCAA tourney games....."a charge is a charge...a block is a block...and everything else is a charge!"

IOW, the obvious charges and blocks are easy to call...if you got something borderline, call it a charge.

Originally Posted by jeffpea

here's a thought from a veteran D1 official who has worked NCAA tourney games....."a charge is a charge...a block is a block...and everything else is a charge!"

IOW, the obvious charges and blocks are easy to call...if you got something borderline, call it a charge.

That's funny, I guess techniques change from region to region. I had a D1 guy tell me at camp this summer, if it's borderline in the 1st half go charge because the offending coach is so far away that he can't really tell & do the opposite in the 2nd half because he's right there. That's just on boarderline block/charge.
Any opinions on this???

[w_sohl]

You gotta have something. Pick one and sell it.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Any opinions on this???

I've heard some say to call it a block (especially in the backcourt) to stop the defense from making you make the tough calls.

I've heard some say "protect the star".

[emtp]

The first borderline B/C call of the game should set the tone. If it is called offensive then all the should be called that, if block, same for that, be consistant. 2 years ago I have a no call B/C, shot was missed, it went to the other end with identical B/C play and my partner also no called it, not one peep out of either coach, or fans , first for everything only my opinion. Good pregame topic.