Backcourt Question

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by CoachP

Player A2, who is holding the ball in the backcourt, throws a pass towards teammate A3, who is in the front court.
Start of dribble.
However, the ball strikes an official who is standing in the frontcourt and rebounds to the backcourt where A4 catches it.
End of dribble. Since A2 was dribbling, 3 point rule applies...no BC violation????? (or am I overthinking this?)

If I were to critique your thinking here it would be to say that you're defining the start of a dribble incorrectly. The initial throw was intended to be, and most likely looked like, a pass not the start of a dribble. Perhaps the 3-point rule should include that the dribble from backcourt to frontcourt has to start with all three points in the backcourt.

[SamIAm]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

You're right about #1 not being a violation, but you've got the wrong reason. When you say that a throw-in isn't complete until the player touches the floor, that's incorrect. And it's not the reason that there's no violation in the stated play. The reason (in NFHS) is .... darn it, I can't find the dag-nabbit citation, but there's an exception written into the rules that says that a player from the team in control can catch the ball while in mid-air, having jumped from that team's frontcourt, and land in the backcourt, and it's not a violation.

In #2, it's a violation. The three point rule only applies to a player dribbling from backcourt to frontcourt. In your play, the ball begins with backcourt status. It is then passed to A2 who has frontcourt status, even while in the air since he jumped from the frontcourt, so when the ball touches A2, it attains frontcourt status. Now when A2 lands in the backcourt, the ball has backcourt status again. Tweet!

Please accept this amendment to sitch #1 above - The exception applies to throw-ins.

Also, please, note Nevada's 1:15AM post for further exceptions.

[CoachP]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

If I were to critique your thinking here it would be to say that you're defining the start of a dribble incorrectly. The initial throw was intended to be, and most likely looked like, a pass not the start of a dribble. Perhaps the 3-point rule should include that the dribble from backcourt to frontcourt has to start with all three points in the backcourt.

The start of a dribble is based on intention? Not following....

[Adam]

Originally Posted by CoachP

The start of a dribble is based on intention? Not following....

When a player throws a bounce pass towards a teammate, it's a pass, not a dribble. Only when the the thrower is the first to retrieve that pass does the pass become a dribble.
So, if a player in the backcourt throws the ball towards the midcourt line, realizes his teammate won't reach it before the opponent, and proceeds to track down the pass, this could be considered a dribble.
In Nevada's post, I think you could make an argument that if, after the ball hits the official the thrower is the first to touch it, it could be considered a dribble and therefore no violation.
However, if a teammate retrieves this ball, then the throw was a pass and it's a violation.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Posting the text of the rule makes me wonder what most people think about the following two plays. Please closely examine the wording of the rule when answering.

A. Player A2, who is holding the ball in the backcourt, throws a pass towards teammate A3, who is in the front court. However, the ball strikes an official who is standing in the frontcourt and rebounds to the backcourt where A4 catches it.

B. Player A1, who has not yet dribbled, is holding the ball in the backcourt and decides to make a pass. His throws a spinning bounce pass diagonally across the court. The ball bounces once in the frontcourt, but due to the spin returns to the backcourt where it hits an official (inbounds) and rolls into the frontcourt again. A1 runs into the frontcourt and picks up the ball.

A. Violation

B. Violation

[CoachP]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

When a player throws a bounce pass towards a teammate, it's a pass, not a dribble. Only when the the thrower is the first to retrieve that pass does the pass become a dribble.
So, if a player in the backcourt throws the ball towards the midcourt line, realizes his teammate won't reach it before the opponent, and proceeds to track down the pass, this could be considered a dribble.
In Nevada's post, I think you could make an argument that if, after the ball hits the official the thrower is the first to touch it, it could be considered a dribble and therefore no violation.
However, if a teammate retrieves this ball, then the throw was a pass and it's a violation.

Oopsies! My bad! I see it now, ball went A2-ref-A4.

[Jimgolf]

Why does team control exist after the ball has struck an official?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

Why does team control exist after the ball has struck an official?

Because that team never lost control. Player control--yes.

NFHS rule 4-12-3&4.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

Why does team control exist after the ball has struck an official?

How does team control end?

A shot is taken.
B gains control.
The ball becomes dead.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I don't believe so.

I think that the criteria that crazy voyager laid out above are slighlty incorrect (at least for NCAA and FED -- FIBA might be different):

1) Team Control

2) Ball reaches the FC (note that player control in the FC is not required)

3) A last to touch before ball goes to BC (note that touching in the FC is not required)

4) A first to touch after ball goes to BC (note that touching in the BC is not required).

A simpler play that Nevada's second play is: A1 dribbles the ball into the FC and is trapped by the defense near the division line. A1 bounces a pass across the court to A2. The ball bounces on the division line and A2 then catches the ball while standing in the FC.

I'd have a violation on this play.

ART. 2 . . . While in team control in its backcourt, a player shall not cause the ball to go from backcourt to frontcourt and return to backcourt, without the ball touching a player in the frontcourt, and be the first to touch it in the backcourt.


ART 2 clearly states that the offense has to be the first to touch the ball in the backcourt. Otherwise, why do we wait until the ball is touched in the bc before we call a violation? In case 2 the ball was never touched in the bc.

No violation.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

A. Violation

B. Violation

What violation has occurred in situation b? Backcourt Violation?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rwest

ART. 2 . . . While in team control in its backcourt, a player shall not cause the ball to go from backcourt to frontcourt and return to backcourt, without the ball touching a player in the frontcourt, and be the first to touch it in the backcourt.


ART 2 clearly states that the offense has to be the first to touch the ball in the backcourt. Otherwise, why do we wait until the ball is touched in the bc before we call a violation? In case 2 the ball was never touched in the bc.

No violation.

What rule set is this. It's not NFHS or NCAA, I'm pretty sure. I could be wrong, I suppose.We don't wait until it's touched in the back court. We wait until it's touched again after it goes into the backcourt.

Edited: I was wrong. However, you forgot article one. The violation in this situation is of article 1, not article 2.

[Adam]

Okay, reading Nevada's situation B, I wonder if we could consider this a dribble and therefore a no-call.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by rwest

What violation has occurred in situation b? Backcourt Violation?

Yes, a BC violation.

9.9.1 SITUATION C: A1 is dribbling in his/her backcourt and throws a pass to the frontcourt. While standing in A's frontcourt: (a) A2 or (b) B3 touches the ball and deflects it back to A's backcourt. A2 recovers in the backcourt. RULING: In (a), it is a violation. The ball was in control of Team A, and a player from A was the last to touch the ball in frontcourt and a player of A was the first to touch it after it returned to the back court. In (b), legal play. A Team A player was not the last to touch the ball in the frontcourt. Team A is entitled to a new 10-second count.

It's not necessary that a touch the ball in the BC, only it's touched after it returned to the back court.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Okay, reading Nevada's situation B, I wonder if we could consider this a dribble and therefore a no-call.

When the ball is bounced from a player to a teammate, it's a pass, not a dribble.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

When the ball is bounced from a player to a teammate, it's a pass, not a dribble.

In situation B of Nevada's post, the ball never made it to a teammate. A1 threw the ball. The ball hit the ref and bounced around. Then A1 was the first to touch the ball. If he hadn't dribbled prior to the pass, this legal without regard to the mid-court line. Can't it be considered a dribble for back-court purposes as well since it's a dribble for traveling purposes?