Backcourt Question

[bigdog5142]

I've never gotten this straight in my head...I've been on a officiating hiatus for about 8 yrs...coached for awhile...now I'm back to officiating.

#1 Team A is inbounding the ball...A1 throws the ball to A2 who jumps from the frontcourt into the backcourt...violation?

#2 A1 is bringing the ball upcourt and is in the backcourt. A1 passes the ball to A2 who has jumped from the frontcourt, catches the ball in the air and lands in the backcourt...violation?

I've thought it through and thought that in #1 the throw-in isn't completed until the player touches the floor...thus, no possession has been established in the frontcourt. In #2, all three points have not crossed the half-court line (ball and both feet), so no violation here, either.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[blindzebra1]

#1 no violation

#2 violation

[CLH]

Blind Zebra is not so blind after all, he hit this one on the head!!!

CLH

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by bigdog5142

I've never gotten this straight in my head...I've been on a officiating hiatus for about 8 yrs...coached for awhile...now I'm back to officiating.

#1 Team A is inbounding the ball...A1 throws the ball to A2 who jumps from the frontcourt into the backcourt...violation?

#2 A1 is bringing the ball upcourt and is in the backcourt. A1 passes the ball to A2 who has jumped from the frontcourt, catches the ball in the air and lands in the backcourt...violation?

I've thought it through and thought that in #1 the throw-in isn't completed until the player touches the floor...thus, no possession has been established in the frontcourt. In #2, all three points have not crossed the half-court line (ball and both feet), so no violation here, either.

Thanks for your thoughts.

You're right about #1 not being a violation, but you've got the wrong reason. When you say that a throw-in isn't complete until the player touches the floor, that's incorrect. And it's not the reason that there's no violation in the stated play. The reason (in NFHS) is .... darn it, I can't find the dag-nabbit citation, but there's an exception written into the rules that says that a player from the team in control can catch the ball while in mid-air, having jumped from that team's frontcourt, and land in the backcourt, and it's not a violation.

In #2, it's a violation. The three point rule only applies to a player dribbling from backcourt to frontcourt. In your play, the ball begins with backcourt status. It is then passed to A2 who has frontcourt status, even while in the air since he jumped from the frontcourt, so when the ball touches A2, it attains frontcourt status. Now when A2 lands in the backcourt, the ball has backcourt status again. Tweet!

[Nevadaref]

rainmaker is correct, except that she left out the word NOT in her post while answering part 1.
Here is the rule citation:

RULE 9
SECTION 9 BACKCOURT
ART. 1 . . . A player shall not be the first to touch a ball after it has been in team control in the frontcourt, if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before it went to the backcourt.
ART. 2 . . . While in team control in its backcourt, a player shall not cause the ball to go from backcourt to frontcourt and return to backcourt, without the ball touching a player in the frontcourt, and be the first to touch it in the backcourt.
ART. 3 . . . A player from the team not in control (defensive player or during a jump ball or throw-in) may legally jump from his/her frontcourt, secure control of the ball with both feet off the floor and return to the floor with one or both feet in the backcourt. The player may make a normal landing and it makes no difference whether the first foot down is in the frontcourt or backcourt.
PENALTY: (Section 9) The ball is dead when the violation occurs and is awarded to the opponents for a throw-in from the designated out-of-bounds spot nearest the violation.

[Nevadaref]

Posting the text of the rule makes me wonder what most people think about the following two plays. Please closely examine the wording of the rule when answering.

A. Player A2, who is holding the ball in the backcourt, throws a pass towards teammate A3, who is in the front court. However, the ball strikes an official who is standing in the frontcourt and rebounds to the backcourt where A4 catches it.

B. Player A1, who has not yet dribbled, is holding the ball in the backcourt and decides to make a pass. His throws a spinning bounce pass diagonally across the court. The ball bounces once in the frontcourt, but due to the spin returns to the backcourt where it hits an official (inbounds) and rolls into the frontcourt again. A1 runs into the frontcourt and picks up the ball.

[Indianaref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Posting the text of the rule makes me wonder what most people think about the following two plays. Please closely examine the wording of the rule when answering.

A. Player A2, who is holding the ball in the backcourt, throws a pass towards teammate A3, who is in the front court. However, the ball strikes an official who is standing in the frontcourt and rebounds to the backcourt where A4 catches it.

B. Player A1, who has not yet dribbled, is holding the ball in the backcourt and decides to make a pass. His throws a spinning bounce pass diagonally across the court. The ball bounces once in the frontcourt, but due to the spin returns to the backcourt where it hits an official (inbounds) and rolls into the frontcourt again. A1 runs into the frontcourt and picks up the ball.

Violation in both cases. Ball hitting official = ball striking the floor at that officials' position.

[crazy voyager]

I don't agree, yes the ball has "hit the floor" when it hits the official. But there's never been control established in the front court (the ball striking the floor doesn't mean the team has touched the ball in the fc). Therefore no violation should be called
for a bc the follwing 3 things must happen:
1 The team is the last to touch the ball in the fc
2 The team is the first to touch it in the bc
3 The team has control of the ball at the time

And unlike the NFHS fiba has no exception regarding bc during a throw in (not from what I know anyway). The case discribed at the top is a bc under fiba rules.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Indianaref

Violation in both cases. Ball hitting official = ball striking the floor at that officials' position.

It's not a violation in case # 2. The ball was not touched in the backcourt by team A. The ball bounced off of the official and went back into the frontcourt. That is where A1 picked up the ball. At least it's not a backcourt violation. However, he better not dribble again or I believe its a violation.

[CoachP]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

A. Player A2, who is holding the ball in the backcourt, throws a pass towards teammate A3, who is in the front court. However, the ball strikes an official who is standing in the frontcourt and rebounds to the backcourt where A4 catches it.

Player A2, who is holding the ball in the backcourt, throws a pass towards teammate A3, who is in the front court.
Start of dribble.
However, the ball strikes an official who is standing in the frontcourt and rebounds to the backcourt where A4 catches it.
End of dribble. Since A2 was dribbling, 3 point rule applies...no BC violation????? (or am I overthinking this?)

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by CoachP

Player A2, who is holding the ball in the backcourt, throws a pass towards teammate A3, who is in the front court.
Start of dribble.
However, the ball strikes an official who is standing in the frontcourt and rebounds to the backcourt where A4 catches it.
End of dribble. Since A2 was dribbling, 3 point rule applies...no BC violation????? (or am I overthinking this?)

If I were to critique your thinking here it would be to say that you're defining the start of a dribble incorrectly. The initial throw was intended to be, and most likely looked like, a pass not the start of a dribble. Perhaps the 3-point rule should include that the dribble from backcourt to frontcourt has to start with all three points in the backcourt.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Posting the text of the rule makes me wonder what most people think about the following two plays. Please closely examine the wording of the rule when answering.

A. Player A2, who is holding the ball in the backcourt, throws a pass towards teammate A3, who is in the front court. However, the ball strikes an official who is standing in the frontcourt and rebounds to the backcourt where A4 catches it.

B. Player A1, who has not yet dribbled, is holding the ball in the backcourt and decides to make a pass. His throws a spinning bounce pass diagonally across the court. The ball bounces once in the frontcourt, but due to the spin returns to the backcourt where it hits an official (inbounds) and rolls into the frontcourt again. A1 runs into the frontcourt and picks up the ball.

A. Violation

B. Violation

[Jimgolf]

Why does team control exist after the ball has struck an official?

[rwest]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

A. Violation

B. Violation

What violation has occurred in situation b? Backcourt Violation?

[Ref in PA]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Posting the text of the rule makes me wonder what most people think about the following two plays. Please closely examine the wording of the rule when answering.

A. Player A2, who is holding the ball in the backcourt, throws a pass towards teammate A3, who is in the front court. However, the ball strikes an official who is standing in the frontcourt and rebounds to the backcourt where A4 catches it.

B. Player A1, who has not yet dribbled, is holding the ball in the backcourt and decides to make a pass. His throws a spinning bounce pass diagonally across the court. The ball bounces once in the frontcourt, but due to the spin returns to the backcourt where it hits an official (inbounds) and rolls into the frontcourt again. A1 runs into the frontcourt and picks up the ball.

Here is my interpretation - for what it is worth

A. Violation. Team A has control. The ball obtains front court status when it hits the ref who is standing in front court. When A4 touches the ball, the ball has backcourt status again.

B. I am torn what to call here. When the passed ball bounces in front court, did you end the ten second count? If so, you are judging the ball obtained front court status and that there is no player control - meaning a dribble has not started. If the dribble has not started, the three points rule does not apply. Can A1 still legally dribble that ball? Yes, but did his dribble officially begin when he passed the ball? I think no. So the ball status between the time A1 passed the ball and the time he started dribbling a loose ball becomes important. However, if you kept the ten second count on after A1 released the ball and the ball bounced in front court, then you seem to be ruling that the released ball was the start of a dribble. Then all the issues pertaining to the location of the ball and the feet of the dribbler come into play.