Throw in kick ball

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by just another ref

5-9-1:........the timer is authorized to start the clock as per rule, unless an official specifically signals continued time-out.


When does this part apply, somebody, if not in the case in question?

How about if the T has their hand up to finish letting subs in, and the L mistakenly hands the ball to the player, and the player throws it in?

Believe me, I feel your pain in this discussion.

But JR is right in pointing out the rule that gives the timer the right to start the clock on the "touch" inbounds, on a throw-in. I agree there is precedence in not allowing the clock to start, especially since they made the change in saying the APTI is not completed, and the ruling on the jump ball. I would approach it the same way as you, in saying the timer didn't stop the clock properly, and therefore I can make the correction. However, that would be a little shaky rules-wise, and I could risk the wrath of a supervisor if I did it that way.

This whole discussion can go away once they add the word "legally" on that specific rule.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Vinski

How about this…
I understand JR’s response that by rule the clock must start when touched during the throw-in, legally or not. However, the clock also must stop on a violation such as a kick. Now, as per the OP, these two acts happen at exactly the same time. Soooo, when considering the space-time-continuum, that would equal a total amount of elapsed time of 0.0 seconds. If this is the case, then we would have exact knowledge of the time elapsed (which would be 0 time) and would conclude that the clock should indicate that no time should have come off. When looked at it from this approach we would still satisfy the rule that the clock must start when the ball is touch on the throw-in and that it would be stopped on the violation. These acts just happen to occur at the exact same time.
Alright, let me have it….

I like your logic in the larger scheme of things, but until the Rules Committee actually writes some consideration of the space-time continuum into the 21 philosophies, I think we're going to have to be a little less intelligent about the whole thing. For me, this sitch is going to happen, and matter, only about once a decade. I mean, in a 15 point game with three minutes left, who cares whether 1 second or 2 seconds or no seconds run off the clock? I'm not going to notice, and no one's going to argue (6th grade girls coaches dont generally care about things like that!). I've developed a habit of always starting a visual count when the clock should start, so I can use that as "definite knowledge" and put time back on if necessary. If it's a one point game, with 2 seconds left, I"m gonna just blow it if I blow it, and do it right if I do it right. When it happens I won't remember this whole discussion anyway.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by just another ref

5-9-1:........the timer is authorized to start the clock as per rule, unless an official specifically signals continued time-out.


When does this part apply, somebody, if not in the case in question?

I've used it in summer league games and in blow-outs when the clock failed to stop on the previous whistle. Rather than go through the "reset the clock" scenario, I just told the timer not to start the clock until I signalled. I hlepd my hand up and then chopped the time in 2 or 3 seconds after it "should have" started to get us back to the "correct" time.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I've used it in summer league games and in blow-outs when the clock failed to stop on the previous whistle. Rather than go through the "reset the clock" scenario, I just told the timer not to start the clock until I signalled. I hlepd my hand up and then chopped the time in 2 or 3 seconds after it "should have" started to get us back to the "correct" time.

I did this in a regular season varsity game last year. Made sure I told both coaches what was happening, though, so they didn't squawk when the clock didn't run right away.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by just another ref

5-9-1:........the timer is authorized to start the clock as per rule, unless an official specifically signals continued time-out.


When does this part apply, somebody, if not in the case in question?

It doesn't apply when the clock is supposed to start by rule and the official fails to do so.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I do. NFHS rule 5-9-2 says that if play is started by a jump, the clock starts when the tossed ball is legally touched. If the player steals the tap, that's an illegal touch and the clock should never have started. Soooooo.....under rule 5-10-1, the official has definite information and the clock is reset to 8:00. Iow, Ben's statement as is was correct imo.

My question now is, Why has the fed not changed the wording on inbounding the ball so this can be more consistent?

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I did this in a regular season varsity game last year.

Why? IOW why not just take the few seconds to fix the clock?

[just another ref]

A1 is shooting 1 free throw. He misses the free throw, and as the ball bounces on the rim, A2 jumps up and stuffs it through. So you guys are going to start the clock and then call the violation and wave off the basket?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by just another ref

A1 is shooting 1 free throw. He misses the free throw, and as the ball bounces on the rim, A2 jumps up and stuffs it through. So you guys are going to start the clock and then call the violation and wave off the basket?

I'll answer this - nope, because that's not the rule.

Apples and kumquats. If you look at 5-9-4, it is regarding throw-ins only. Your situation is on a FT.

I just hope I never have to make that call until they change the wording.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

A1 is shooting 1 free throw. He misses the free throw, and as the ball bounces on the rim, A2 jumps up and stuffs it through. So you guys are going to start the clock and then call the violation and wave off the basket?

Of course that's what any knowledgable official will do. They're gonna follow the rules.....specifically NFHS rule 5-9-3.

If you don't like the rules and don't feel like following them, be my guest. Good luck in your future officiating career.

[just another ref]

Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref
A1 is shooting 1 free throw. He misses the free throw, and as the ball bounces on the rim, A2 jumps up and stuffs it through. So you guys are going to start the clock and then call the violation and wave off the basket?

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I'll answer this - nope, because that's not the rule.

Apples and kumquats. If you look at 5-9-4, it is regarding throw-ins only. Your situation is on a FT.

I just hope I never have to make that call until they change the wording.

5-9-3:If a free throw is not successful and the ball is to remain live, the clock shall be started when the ball touches or is touched by a player on the court.


5-9-4: If play is resumed by a throw-in, the clock shall be started when the ball touches, or is touched by, a player on the court after it is released by the thrower.


What is the difference?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by just another ref

What is the difference?

Actually, nothing - I was so focused on the past discussion regarding 5-9-4, I glossed over 5-9-3. The issue is still the same - "touching" vs. "legally touching".

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I did this in a regular season varsity game last year. Made sure I told both coaches what was happening, though, so they didn't squawk when the clock didn't run right away.

Not to be done in a varsity game. Have them put the correct time back up if you have definite knowledge. Otherwise, leave it along.

[just another ref]

At least, if I understand correctly, if this accidentally works out the way I consider to be right, everything is okay. If the first touch on the court is a kick, the official chopping the clock, even if done, which many times it would not be, would be a blur mixed in with the signal for the violation. And whether the timer is watching for the chop or watching for the touch on the court to start the clock, the whistle will follow so closely that I'm guessing many times the clock will not start. None of this is terribly significant unless it all happens at the end of a period with a very small amount of time, and then I guess each of us will have to decide at that time how to proceed.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by just another ref

At least, if I understand correctly, if this accidentally works out the way I consider to be right, everything is okay. If the first touch on the court is a kick, the official chopping the clock, even if done, which many times it would not be, would be a blur mixed in with the signal for the violation. And whether the timer is watching for the chop or watching for the touch on the court to start the clock, the whistle will follow so closely that I'm guessing many times the clock will not start. None of this is terribly significant unless it all happens at the end of a period with a very small amount of time, and then I guess each of us will have to decide at that time how to proceed.

Actually had this happen this weekend with an old style clock. We had a bonus situation with 8 seconds left, tie game 61-61, shot, miss, foul on the rebound. No time off the clock, shoot 1n1 again. Made both buckets. On the ensueing inbound, long pass to midcourt, foul on the play. No time off the clock. We then walk down to the other end to shoot 1n1. Still 8 seconds. Players scream at me, time should have come off. I just said no, times right, shooting 1n1.