Throw In Violation?

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

The wording of A.R. 155's RULING is poor. Dan is correct that A1 cannot retouch the ball because A1 stepped onto the playing court and that is the ONLY reason a violation has occured in A.R. 155. The thing to remember in A.R. 155, as well as in the Original Post, is that Team A's throw-in is a throw-in after a score by Team B. One must remember that this throw-in has different that a designated throw-in.

Mark
I have to disagree completely with you here. The AR 155 specifically states after a basket by team B - and it is specifiacally a part of Rule 7 - S5-A8, a. which states: Any player of the throw-in team may make a direct throw in or may pass the ball along the end line to a team mate who is also out of bounds..

I can not see how you come to your conclusion.
I may be a little slow today help me out

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

Just a suggestion I would leave the term traveling out of any explanation regarding a throw-in.

Does that mean that the NFHS rulesmakers should delete case book play 7.6.2COMMENT? That NFHS case play says exactly what you are saying shouldn't be said.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

Mark
I have to disagree completely with you here. The AR 155 specifically states after a basket by team B - and it is specifiacally a part of Rule 7 - S5-A8, a. which states: Any player of the throw-in team may make a direct throw in or may pass the ball along the end line to a team mate who is also out of bounds..

I can not see how you come to your conclusion.
I may be a little slow today help me out

I'm not MTD but I'll help you out.

The part that I left underlined is to differentiate between a pass to a team mate inbounds or OOB beyond the endline. It is not there to say that a pass *must* be only to a team mate when it's made beyond the endline (that's kind of redundant btw, since a pass by definition is to a team mate). And it does not invalidate the 1 thing we agree on, that no travel or dribble rules apply during the throw-in.

So...

1. You can pass the ball inbounds or OOB beyond the endline. If it goes inbounds you cannot be the first to touch.

2. You cannot violate travel or illegal dribble rules (ie so-called "self pass" as in the OP's play allowed)

3. You cannnot "pass" the ball, come in bounds the go back out & retrieve the ball in this case. Per the AR under discussion.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

Mark
I can not see how you come to your conclusion.
I may be a little slow today help me out

Allow me. See if you can find an NCAA or NFHS rule anywhere that says that it's a violation for the thrower on a non-designated spot throw-in to fumble the ball along the endline and then go and get it. That's what's happening in the play being discussed. AR155 simply isn't relevant.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Does that mean that the NFHS rulesmakers should delete case book play 7.6.2COMMENT? That NFHS case play says exactly what you are saying shouldn't be said.

They may want to consider doing so since no where in the definition of traveling is there any reference to a Throw-in -
While I do not have the rule or case book with me - I do not recall ever seeing traveling refered to in Rule 7 either. I may be wrong there - but the violation is leaving the spot - not traveling as it used to be.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

They may want to consider doing so since no where in the definition of traveling is there any reference to a Throw-in -
While I do not have the rule or case book with me - I do not recall ever seeing traveling refered to in Rule 7 either. I may be wrong there - but the violation is leaving the spot - not traveling as it used to be.

You are wrong. Look in the "Throw-In" section, to find the "traveling" reference, not vice-versa. NFHS case book play 7.6.2COMMENT says "Pivot-foot restrictions and the TRAVELING rule are NOT in effect for a THROW-IN".

Your statement was "Just a suggestion I would leave the term traveling out of any any explanation regarding the throw-in".

The NFHS rulesmakers very, very obviously completely disagree with your suggestion above. The NFHS rulesmakers included the term "traveling" in THEIR explanation regarding the throw-on(their explanation being case book play 7.6.2COMMENT).

[OHBBREF]

I agree you can Fumble the ball and go get it and pass it in bounds - however it can not be a pass.

JR you even say in your first response call it a Fumble an move on - so if you for some reason define it as a pass it has to be illegal,

I am not saying that you can enter the court and come back out of bounds either (I didn't intend that anyway) but Mark said the only reason was because of the reentry out of bounds and clearly the rule book says that is not the case.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

I agree you can Fumble the ball and go get it and pass it in bounds - however it can not be a pass.

Hmmm...

There's a case where A1 throws the ball in the direction of a teammate. the teammate isn't looking and moves away. A1 moves and recovers the ball after it hits the floor. The ruling is that this is a dribble.

Why wouldn't the same concept apply on the OP (except we couldn't call it a dribble, of course)?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

JR you even say in your first response call it a Fumble an move on - so if you for some reason define it as a pass it has to be illegal,

Can you cite an NCAA or NFHS rule that states that's it's illegal to pass the ball along the end-line on an unrestricted throw-in and then go get it before a teammate touches it?

I can't.

[OHBBREF]

JR
I refer to the Rule Book RULE 7 not the case book comment as far as refererence to traveling being in the RULE -
True - The traveling rule is not in effect - that IMHO references the fact that a player can still move both feet within the area during designated spot throw in without being subject to the same restrictions when they are in possession of the ball while on the playing floor.
The rule itself specifically states that you can run the end line after a basket without penalty so it would be redunundant at that point.
I will conceed the point son removing the word traveling from the Comment sice I did actually see a first year guy make that call early in the year.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

JR
I refer to the Rule Book RULE 7 not the case book comment as far as refererence to traveling being in the RULE -

How about Rule 4-42-6NOTE? That says "Pivot foot restrictions and the traveling rule are not in effect on a throw-in." Should the FED delete that reference to "traveling" during that explanation of a "throw-in" also?

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Can you cite an NCAA or NFHS rule that states that's it's illegal to pass the ball along the end-line on an unrestricted throw-in and then go get it before a teammate touches it?

Actually I can not either.

All I can do is use the AR 155 which says that it is illegal and give reasons why.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Hmmm...

There's a case where A1 throws the ball in the direction of a teammate. the teammate isn't looking and moves away. A1 moves and recovers the ball after it hits the floor. The ruling is that this is a dribble.

Why wouldn't the same concept apply on the OP (except we couldn't call it a dribble, of course)?

Of course this is never a pass because as I mentioned a pass is defined as moving the ball from 1 player to another. No such thing as a "self pass", no such thing as a travel or dribble violation during a throw-in, it's all perfectly legal unless you violate by coming inbounds & stepping back out with or without the ball. The AR under discussion covers the second of these 2 cases.

There's really no need to bring in other rules, it's all self consistent IMO.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Can you cite an NCAA or NFHS rule that states that's it's illegal to pass the ball along the end-line on an unrestricted throw-in and then go get it before a teammate touches it?

I can't.

Nope, and that is why I'm with you that this play should be legal in both NFHS and NCAA play, but someone made a poor decision to write an A.R. making it illegal in an NCAA game. That is the only reason that I can state that it is currently a violation in NCAA play.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

... it's all self consistent IMO.

It's not even consistent with the NCAA rules. That is the point JR is making.