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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 04, 2007, 03:26pm
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Throw In Violation?

A1 has ball for a throw-in after a made basket. She gets ready to throw the ball in when a defender jumps the throwing lane in front of A2. A1 redirects her pass down the endline and the ball remains OOB. She retrieves the ball and completes the throw-in within the 5 seconds. Did she violate?? After coming down the court I told myself that she violated because she didn't throw the pass directly onto the court. But then I started to think that she can pass the ball OOB to a teammate after a made basket, the ball can slip out of her hands and remain OOB and she retrieve and complete the throw in, so did she really commit a violation? I don't have a rulebook at my disposal, and this was Girls 16U FED rules. Thanks in advance for any input and clarification.
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Old Mon Jun 04, 2007, 03:29pm
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Old Mon Jun 04, 2007, 06:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeTheRef
A1 has ball for a throw-in after a made basket. She gets ready to throw the ball in when a defender jumps the throwing lane in front of A2. A1 redirects her pass down the endline and the ball remains OOB. She retrieves the ball and completes the throw-in within the 5 seconds. Did she violate?? After coming down the court I told myself that she violated because she didn't throw the pass directly onto the court. But then I started to think that she can pass the ball OOB to a teammate after a made basket, the ball can slip out of her hands and remain OOB and she retrieve and complete the throw in, so did she really commit a violation? I don't have a rulebook at my disposal, and this was Girls 16U FED rules. Thanks in advance for any input and clarification.
There has been some debate about this play on this forum before. JR and I can see no reason why the play is not perfectly legal under NFHS rules. However, there is an NCAA A.R. which states that this is a violation.

from NCAA BR-133:

A.R. 155.
After a score by Team B, A1 has disposal of the ball for a throw-in. A1 starts a throw-in to A2 but notices that A2 is defensively covered. While losing his/her balance, A1 passes the ball along the endline. A1ís forward momentum carries him/her onto the playing court. A1 leaves the playing court, returns out-of-bounds and recovers the ball along the endline. Is this legal? RULING: No. A1 failed to pass the ball directly into the playing court, nor did A1 pass the ball along the endline to a teammate. When A1 touches the ball, he/she has violated the throw-in provisions.

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Old Mon Jun 04, 2007, 08:52pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
There has been some debate about this play on this forum before. JR and I can see no reason why the play is not perfectly legal under NFHS rules. However, there is an NCAA A.R. which states that this is a violation.

from NCAA BR-133:

A.R. 155.
After a score by Team B, A1 has disposal of the ball for a throw-in. A1 starts a throw-in to A2 but notices that A2 is defensively covered. While losing his/her balance, A1 passes the ball along the endline. A1ís forward momentum carries him/her onto the playing court. A1 leaves the playing court, returns out-of-bounds and recovers the ball along the endline. Is this legal? RULING: No. A1 failed to pass the ball directly into the playing court, nor did A1 pass the ball along the endline to a teammate. When A1 touches the ball, he/she has violated the throw-in provisions.

Wrong.

As long as A1 (in the OP's play) did not come inbounds after releasing the ball she has violated nothing under ncaa rules. AR 155 is meant to show that the inbounder has violated when he steps inbounds and steps back out to recover the ball behind the endline. If A1 had stayed beyond the endline there would be no violation, just as under NFHS. This is because under both rules sets travel rules are not in effect during throw-ins, ever.
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Old Tue Jun 05, 2007, 02:00am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
Wrong.

As long as A1 (in the OP's play) did not come inbounds after releasing the ball she has violated nothing under ncaa rules. AR 155 is meant to show that the inbounder has violated when he steps inbounds and steps back out to recover the ball behind the endline. If A1 had stayed beyond the endline there would be no violation, just as under NFHS. This is because under both rules sets travel rules are not in effect during throw-ins, ever.
I don't agree with you, Dan.

The A.R. specifically states two reasons for calling a violation. Leaving the designated spot or the area behind the endline is not one of them. The fact that the thrower went inbounds and then came back out seems to be of no consequence to the ruling at all. The controlling action that the NCAA is focusing on seems to be that A1 threw a pass.

I believe that the following play would not be a violation under NCAA rules.
Team B scores a goal. A1 picks up the ball and steps OOB. A1 places the ball down on the floor OOB and then steps into the court. A2 runs OOB near the ball but decides not to pick it up, so A1 returns OOB and picks up the ball and completes the throw-in prior to the expiration of the alloted five seconds.
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Old Tue Jun 05, 2007, 08:23am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
I don't agree with you, Dan.

The A.R. specifically states two reasons for calling a violation. Leaving the designated spot or the area behind the endline is not one of them. The fact that the thrower went inbounds and then came back out seems to be of no consequence to the ruling at all. The controlling action that the NCAA is focusing on seems to be that A1 threw a pass.

I believe that the following play would not be a violation under NCAA rules.
Team B scores a goal. A1 picks up the ball and steps OOB. A1 places the ball down on the floor OOB and then steps into the court. A2 runs OOB near the ball but decides not to pick it up, so A1 returns OOB and picks up the ball and completes the throw-in prior to the expiration of the alloted five seconds.
So far we've discussed 3 different plays. The OP's play, the AR and now your new play.

Only the AR play is illegal.
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Old Tue Jun 05, 2007, 09:06am
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The wording of A.R. 155's RULING is poor. Dan is correct that A1 cannot retouch the ball because A1 stepped onto the playing court and that is the ONLY reason a violation has occured in A.R. 155. The thing to remember in A.R. 155, as well as in the Original Post, is that Team A's throw-in is a throw-in after a score by Team B. One must remember that this throw-in has different that a designated throw-in.

Keeping with the Original Post, somethings apply whether the throw-in is after a score (or awarded points) or a designated spot throw-in. 1) There is no player control during a throw-in. 2) There is no team control (NFHS) and there is team control (NCAA). But the key to this play is that there is no player control during a throw-in, therefore dribbling does not occur during a throw-in meaning that a player can "pass" the ball to himself as in the case of the play being discussed.

And finally, once again, whoever wrote the RULING A.R. 155, did not bother to read NCAA R7-S5-A8, nor did he bother to apply it correctly.

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Last edited by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.; Tue Jun 05, 2007 at 09:11am.
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Old Tue Jun 05, 2007, 09:56am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
The wording of A.R. 155's RULING is poor. Dan is correct that A1 cannot retouch the ball because A1 stepped onto the playing court and that is the ONLY reason a violation has occured in A.R. 155.
Oh, wait.

Can I change my vote?

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Old Tue Jun 05, 2007, 10:50am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
The fact that the thrower went inbounds and then came back out seems to be of no consequence to the ruling at all.
Then why is it included in the play?

That's twice today you've screwed the pooch.
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Old Tue Jun 05, 2007, 11:11am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef

That's twice today you've screwed the pooch.

HEY!! That's illegal in most states...
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Old Tue Jun 05, 2007, 11:16am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockyroad
HEY!! That's illegal in most states...
You mean you can't do it more than once?
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Old Tue Jun 05, 2007, 11:21am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy
You mean you can't do it more than once?
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Old Tue Jun 05, 2007, 11:35am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockyroad
HEY!! That's illegal in most states...
But not all states ......
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Old Tue Jun 05, 2007, 12:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
Wrong.

This is because under both rules sets travel rules are not in effect during throw-ins, ever.
Just a suggestion I would leave the term traveling out of any explaination regarding a throw-in.
There is no such thing as Traveling on a throw-in!
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Old Tue Jun 05, 2007, 12:42pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OHBBREF
Just a suggestion I would leave the term traveling out of any explaination regarding a throw-in.
There is no such thing as Traveling on a throw-in!
You broke your own rule, but thanks anyway.
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