Coach takes offense.......

[DrakeM]

Situation in last night's game.
Home team is top ranked girls team in the state. (actually they won the mythical National Championship last year)
4th quarter,less than 2:00 remaining. Girl on visiting team
comes close to a travel, but is subsequently fouled.
Girls on home team start complaining about a travel.
So I say to them, "You are up by 23 points, relax."
Meaning, at that point in the game, with the score as it is,
you really don't need to be giong crazy over a possible travel call. Captain says "You still need to call the travel" I say to her, "it was close", she then seemed to accept that and said "ok".
Less than a minute left, we are shooting free throws and I notice, the captain saying something to her head coach and I hear the assistant say, "That's not right!" I then know she is talking about my statement. Couple more trips down the floor, in what is now close to a 30 point game, and I can feel the Home coaches daggers shooting at me. As I run by, he says, "the score doesn't matter". I ignore him.
Visiting team calls timeout. Home coach walks onto the floor, and proceeds to say to my PARTNER (not me) that my comments were unprofessional, and that the score doesn't mean we don't make calls. (in theory I agree, but reality is otherwise.) I try to walk him back to the bench by placing my hand on his back and saying "Coach, let's walk back to your bench while we talk." He then pulls away and says, "take your hands off me." By the way, I have used this technique many times and NEVER had a coach take exception to it. He then threatens to send a tape to the state!? At this point my thought is to "T" him up since he wants to be a jack-a***. After all, HE came onto the floor.
Yeah, send a tape to the state and let them see you on the floor, me, trying to use discretion by helping you back to the bench without wacking you, and see what they say.
Anyway, I'm mainly venting. I would still tell players in a game that is a blowout, not to get freaky about a call in the last minute of the game.
I have lost any respect I may have had for this coach.
To me, his taking offense at me trying to walk him back to the bench was saying, "I'm Mr. Big time head coach, you can't tell me what to do."
Any thoughts?
Drake

[Mark Dexter]

In a situation like this, I would probably tell the captain that the player did not travel. You said it was close to a travel. We took that to mean she did not travel, but when you say "it was close" to the opponents, it sounds like she travelled 'just a bit.'

[williebfree]

You were ok in this situation; HOWEVER, I would NEVER, NEVER, put my hand or other body parts, on ANYONE, without legal cause (i.e. I am in a correctional institution and am legally required to physically intervene when emminent danger exists). Your intentions were on target, but the method of execution (Pun intended ) was not the best choice.

Was that "coach" out of line? ABSOLUTELY, but it is not justification for you to get into a power struggle. Do not lower yourself to his standard.

Yes, I realize the testosterone was flowing at full bore. Ain't it great!

[DrakeM]

To me it's kind of ironic that the main reason I didn't "t"
the coach up was the same reason his player was upset that I didn't call a travel. At that point in the game, it wasn't worth it. Did I feel like wacking him? Damn straight!
would it have accomplished anything? Nope.
Willie, thatnks for the advice. I generally am very careful about putting my hands on someone as a ref. There have been times when you can't avoid it. However, I will NEVER grab a player from behind.(for example, in a fight situation.)
It's a good way to lose some teeth.

[LarryS]

Think I would have handled the no-calls the same way, and probably said the same thing. Glad I read the post here, now I can avoid a problem.

I would also advise against putting your hand on anyone. The only time I have ever put a hand on a player or coach was two nights ago. Hustling toward my favorit spot to report a foul, glanced back to double check the players number and had another girl step right in my path. Had to grab her to keep from knocking her over and tripping over her. We almost ended up in a heap, I started to pretend we were dancing but figured that would not look appropriate.

[JoeT]

Originally posted by DrakeM
"You are up by 23 points, relax."

I'm sure this is going to be unpopular, but here goes....

I make it a point NEVER to comment on the score when questioned about a call. I agree wholeheartedly that it's appropriate to adjust with the score of the game, but I've found that it's not been helpful ever to say so.

As a coach, if I were already irritated with an official and looking for something to gripe about, I might just jump on your (seeming) admission that you passed on a call because it wasn't a close game. As an official, I try (sometimes unsuccessfully) not to give coaches too much specific language to gripe about.

Another aspect: I just went through a situation where a report had to be filed to the state for an ejection (thankfully, I was neither the ejectOR nor the ejectEE!) The specific language used by the official was ill-chosen, and quoting it on the report made him look pretty bad.

As a young official, I'm coming to the personal conclusion that "the less said, the better." YMMV.

Joe

[Edited by JoeT on Dec 14th, 2001 at 10:08 AM]

[devdog69]

I had another reminder as to why not to make physical contact with players and/or coaches last night. Early in the fourth in Freshman girls game a girl fouls out. She knew it and was already standing by the bench. I tell her coach that's five, tell the clock to give me a 30-second timer and start it. She walks over to me and sticks her hand out saying "thanks, good game". I guess it caught me off guard, but I shook her hand. Only she squeezed as hard as she could and then threw my hand away violently (ya had to be there), turned and stomped away. It was apparent her intentions were not at all as innocent as she made them appear at first. I immediately put my whistle in my mouth, and was a nanosecond away from putting air in it. Just counted to three and decided to handle it another way. I told her AD about it after the game and I will have them at least three more times this year and I plan on telling her that it won't be tolerated again. Comments?

[Edited by devdog69 on Dec 14th, 2001 at 09:05 AM]

[DrakeM]

Joe,

I do agree that telling a player that you're justifying a no-call because of the time and score is not wise practice.
As I said earlier, I made the statement in an attempt to help them realize that the LEVEL of their complaining at that point in the game was not necessary.
I guess I didn't do a good enough job.
The other point that ticked me off, is that why do players
have to run crying to their coach when an official says something? Grow up! (More venting)
The final score by the way was 71-48!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by JoeT

I'm sure this is going to be unpopular, but here goes....

I make it a point NEVER to comment on the score when questioned about a call. I agree wholeheartedly that it's appropriate to adjust with the score of the game, but I've found that it's not been helpful ever to say so.

As a coach, if I were already irritated with an official and looking for something to gripe about, I might just jump on your (seeming) admission that you passed on a call because it wasn't a close game. As an official, I try (sometimes unsuccessfully) not to give coaches to much specific language to gripe about.

Another aspect: I just went through a situation where a report had to be filed to the state for an ejection (thankfully, I was neither the ejectOR nor the ejectEE!) The specific language used by the official was ill-chosen, and quoting it on the report made him look pretty bad.

As a young official, I'm coming the the personal conclusion that "the less said, the better." YMMV.

Joe

Joe,what you said above ain't unpopular with me.There's a lot of common sense in what you wrote,and age or being a young official has nothing to do with how to use common sense.

[JoeT]

Originally posted by DrakeM
Joe,

I do agree that telling a player that you're justifying a no-call because of the time and score is not wise practice.
As I said earlier, I made the statement in an attempt to help them realize that the LEVEL of their complaining at that point in the game was not necessary.
I guess I didn't do a good enough job.

Drake -

I understood your intent, and I agree with it. I'm just oversensitive (this week particularly) to saying things that could be used against me out of context. I wasn't suggesting you didn't do a good job!

Originally posted by DrakeM
The other point that ticked me off, is that why do players have to run crying to their coach when an official says something? Grow up! (More venting)

Here could be a reason (although I agree that some "growing up" is also in order): As a coach, I instruct my players never to comment to an official (except for the floor captain asking a polite, specific question). I tell them to approach me if they have a concern about the officiating, and in return I will mention it to the official politely if I cannot answer their question. I have found that it's most helpful to the quality of their play if they learn not to concern themselves with how the officials are doing. They already have five opponents' actions to be concerned about.

[Dan_ref]

I think JoeT got this one right, Drake. Think about
your conversation with the captain, you fell into a situation where you were debating with the player instead
of ignoring her or telling her there was no walk & playing
on. Maybe you let your guard down because it was a
blowout. As for the coach, well, he's a solid gold
dyed in the wool @sshole. You did a great job by trying
to herd him off the floor, you did even better by not T'ing
that SOB up. Thinking about it here calmly in front of
my computer maybe the best response to "take your hands
off me" would have been "then get off my floor, now!"
Nothing much he can say to that, and the threat of what
is coming next is pretty strongly implied. Thanks for
sharing this sitch, it remnds us how quickly things can
spin out of control.

[DrakeM]

Dan,
That's basically what I did. Not exactly "get off my floor"
but I made it well known to him that he didn't have right to be on the floor and I could take care of it very easily if he would like.
One more gripe.
When he came out on the floor, he addressed my PARTNER, not me. If he had a problem with me, then be big enough to discuss it with me.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by devdog69
I had another reminder as to why not to make physical contact with players and/or coaches last night. Early in the fourth in Freshman girls game a girl fouls out. She knew it and was already standing by the bench. I tell her coach that's five, tell the clock to give me a 30-second timer and start it. She walks over to me and sticks her hand out saying "thanks, good game". I guess it caught me off guard, but I shook her hand. Only she squeezed as hard as she could and then threw my hand away violently (ya had to be there), turned and stomped away. It was apparent her intentions were not at all as innocent as she made them appear at first. I immediately put my whistle in my mouth, and was a nanosecond away from putting air in it. Just counted to three and decided to handle it another way. I told her AD about it after the game and I will have them at least three more times this year and I plan on telling her that it won't be tolerated again. Comments?

[Edited by devdog69 on Dec 14th, 2001 at 09:05 AM]

I think you would have been very justified in charging the girl with a technical foul. If she made a big production of it and it appears she did, then she was trying to embarass you and was deserving of a technical foul.

[ChuckElias]

First, if anybody hasn't already heard Joe's advice, he is directly on target. "The less said, the better." That's why captain's conferences are 20 seconds or less. That's why you don't announce the type of foul when you report to the table. That's why you only say "One!" when administering FTs (no need to say, "Ok, guys, we had a good hoop, so we're only shooting one, here. Everybody get set. Make sure it gets iron before you come into the lane. OK? Here we go. One!"). Almost anything you say can give somebody cause for taking umbrage. So say as little as possible. And when you do say something, keep it short, and unemotional. (See my post about Jimmy Burr vs. Bobby Knight.)

Second, I would never refer to the score as an explanation for a call/no-call. Better just to re-affirm your call, "It wasn't a travel." If you want to try to be lighthearted about it, you might add, "And you guys don't need any extra help tonight." But as this example clearly points out, admitting that you "referee the score" will only cause bad feelings (even tho every official does it at one point or another).

Third, devdog, you have GOT to T that girl. That is the definition of unsportsmanlike. Absolutely report it to the AD, but you should never tolerate that kind of disrespect on the court. It is irrelevant whether anybody else knows what happened. I can't believe that a player would do that. If I were speaking instead of typing, I'd be sputtering with outrage. Give the T and sit the coach, since she's bench personnel.

Finally, I've only physically moved a player once in my career. It was a 7th/8th grade boys game. A time-out was called and one little punk was doing a stare-down at another player and looked like he actually wanted to go at it. I got right in front of him, put my hand in his chest and moved him back to his bench. He said, "You can't push me!" And I just said, "You're not fighting during MY game" and kept walking until we were at his bench.

Take it for what it's worth.

Chuck

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by DrakeM
Dan,

...
One more gripe.
When he came out on the floor, he addressed my PARTNER, not me. If he had a problem with me, then be big enough to discuss it with me.

Drake,

Does he know your partner better than you? Do you have
a history with this guy? He did make it personal and
for no good reason. At any rate I think he was playing
with you and was going to make you "reach" for a T if you
decided to take him. Maybe he had the idea of getting you
to fly off the handle, or at least look bad on the tape, so
he would have something real to b1tch about. Pretty weak
if he sent in a tape of a "crazed official" and here's
Drake patiently doing his job.