Coach and Player Confrontation

[Junker]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The problem is everything is not abuse. If you get in someone's face you are being abusive. If you tell someone how you feel, it is abusive. If you use one foul word, it is abusive.

There are several generations that were literally knocked up side the head and they did not go around and shoot up a school.

If anything this just shows the fundamental problem in our society. Parents and adults would rather be friends with children than being the bad guy or gal and disciplining children. If that means you have to raise your voice then do so. My God Alec Baldwin is being roasted for getting upset with his child, who he takes care of BTW. I wish that was the only thing my parents said to me when they got angry and I did a lot less.

I know most will not agree with me, but I could never imagine myself even getting upset over this confrontation. It sounded like a little spoiled brat not being able to play a game and someone not putting up with his crap. We really need to stop treating kids today as if they are so innocent. There are kids his age that have committed capital crimes and we are afraid to hurt their feelings during an extra-curricular activity?

Peace

Well said. I actually tried writing a similar post, but would have gone on for 3 pages so I opted for what I wrote.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

I do not ride a horse nor carry a big stick. I would have step between the player and coach and tried to talk the player out of it. I would have at least given that a try and not access any technicals if successful, but warned the bench. I said this before, I am pro-players and against the coaches actions here. You should not push a kid that far. It's just a basketball game. I agree with the arguement of making the players tough, however, I disagree with driving them crazy to do so. I guess since you didn't see the look in his eyes, you couldn't understand that, rightfully so. But you should comprehend the fact that this is a 17 year old. Can you imagine what must be going thru your head at age 17 to go after an adult? And of that, how much of it is rage and how much is emotion? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see this is not a good situation for this kid and I made need to get involved from a parents prospective. You guys may disagree with that, but that's just how I feel inside.

So let me get this straight.
You're going to insert yourself into what you think is a situation where the player needs you to protect him from his coach's verbal abuse? You see this kid once, for a total of what, an hour? And now you think you're qualified to ascertain the health of this coach/player relationship? Furthermore, you think you can step in and shield this player?

You've got no idea of the history between these two, and unless you've got more contact with them than you're letting on, I'd go so far as to say you probably have no business getting involved. It's for the players, parents, and coach to hash out later.

The only involvement I can justify is if either of their behavior warrants a T. Tell them to save it for after the game and move on.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

So let me get this straight.
You're going to insert yourself into what you think is a situation where the player needs you to protect him from his coach's verbal abuse? You see this kid once, for a total of what, an hour? And now you think you're qualified to ascertain the health of this coach/player relationship? Furthermore, you think you can step in and shield this player?

You've got no idea of the history between these two, and unless you've got more contact with them than you're letting on, I'd go so far as to say you probably have no business getting involved. It's for the players, parents, and coach to hash out later.

The only involvement I can justify is if either of their behavior warrants a T. Tell them to save it for after the game and move on.

See my (not very long) post on the previous page...or any of Mick's posts in this thread...

[Old School]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The problem is everything is not abuse. If you get in someone's face you are being abusive. If you tell someone how you feel, it is abusive. If you use one foul word, it is abusive.

There are several generations that were literally knocked up side the head and they did not go around and shoot up a school.

If anything this just shows the fundamental problem in our society. Parents and adults would rather be friends with children than being the bad guy or gal and disciplining children. If that means you have to raise your voice then do so. My God Alec Baldwin is being roasted for getting upset with his child, who he takes care of BTW. I wish that was the only thing my parents said to me when they got angry and I did a lot less.

I know most will not agree with me, but I could never imagine myself even getting upset over this confrontation. It sounded like a little spoiled brat not being able to play a game and someone not putting up with his crap. We really need to stop treating kids today as if they are so innocent. There are kids his age that have committed capital crimes and we are afraid to hurt their feelings during an extra-curricular activity?

Peace

JRut, I understand your position here but it is the opposite extreme of what we are talking about. This tread is not about kids needing more discipline in there life or kids needing to toughen up.

The case I bought up with the child crying on the court. We’re talking kids still in grade school. The coach who was black wanted the white player who was taller than all the other kids in his age group to toughen up and play like a man. The kid was giving it his all, so much so, he was crying right there on the court. Damn near the whole game. My question to all of you is, when did you all lose site of kids just being kids? You have become the Roman society. When did bb become so damn important that kids now have to be adults before puberty sets in. Do you know that you will spend the majority of your life as an adult? How about we let kids be kids during those precious years where they don’t have a care in the world, instead of enforcing our selfish motives to win a bb game so they must grow up right now and get tough. I bet there was a lot of other places that kid would have rather been then running up and down that court crying. In fact, that type of abuse (and yes, I believe it is abusive to treat a kid this way) may turn this kid off to bb forever. That is the part that I speak about when I say it’s a sad state of affairs in this industry.

Last, did you know that bully’s, kids that abuse other kids, are kids that are abused themselves. Did you know that? Where does this abuse start or come from? Could it be from being forced to do something they don’t want to do. I’m all for disciplining kids in a proper and respectful manner and there will be tough ramifications if you do something wrong, however....!

However valid your argument is JRut, it missed the boat here. You shot an airball, but it looked good.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Old School

When working with below college level players. You need to be concerned about a players emotional state, especially if it is something that is not related to what's going on on the court. The players are the #1 priority out there. Their well-being, health, safety takes precedence over everything else on the floor, imho. Sometimes, I think coaches temporary forget this.

While everything you say here may have some merit, the big question is still authority in this matter. What if the player screams at the coach that his sprained ankle hurts and he needs to come out? The coach replies, "Suck it up and play, you wimp!"

Do you intervene here because of concern for permanent injury?

[Old School]

Originally Posted by just another ref

While everything you say here may have some merit, the big question is still authority in this matter. What if the player screams at the coach that his sprained ankle hurts and he needs to come out? The coach replies, "Suck it up and play, you wimp!"

Do you intervene here because of concern for permanent injury?

Had it happen in a JV game. I wrote the coach up too! Definity did not want to see that coach progress any further in his career.

[Texref]

Originally Posted by Old School

JRut, I understand your position here but it is the opposite extreme of what we are talking about. This tread is not about kids needing more discipline in there life or kids needing to toughen up.

The case I bought up with the child crying on the court. We’re talking kids still in grade school. The coach who was black wanted the white player who was taller than all the other kids in his age group to toughen up and play like a man. The kid was giving it his all, so much so, he was crying right there on the court. Damn near the whole game. My question to all of you is, when did you all lose site of kids just being kids? You have become the Roman society. When did bb become so damn important that kids now have to be adults before puberty sets in. Do you know that you will spend the majority of your life as an adult? How about we let kids be kids during those precious years where they don’t have a care in the world, instead of enforcing our selfish motives to win a bb game so they must grow up right now and get tough. I bet there was a lot of other places that kid would have rather been then running up and down that court crying. In fact, that type of abuse (and yes, I believe it is abusive to treat a kid this way) may turn this kid off to bb forever. That is the part that I speak about when I say it’s a sad state of affairs in this industry.

Last, did you know that bully’s, kids that abuse other kids, or kids that are abused themselves. Did you know that? Where does this abuse start or come from? Could it be from being forced to do something they don’t want to do. I’m all for disciplining kids in a proper and respectful manner and there will be tough ramifications if you do something wrong. However valid your argument is JRut, it missed the boat here. You shot an airball, but it looked good.

Unless this is your child, since when is a U17 player still in grade school? U17's are usually sophomores or juniors in high school. My 2cents, that is an issue between the coach and the player. The parents let/chose this coach to coach their child. It's no different than the players that go play for Coach Knight. I personally wouldn't want/let my child play for a coach like that, but there are plenty of parents who would. What would you do if this was a Texas Tech/ K-State (although Huggins isn't there anymore) and they started to yell at a player and made that player cry? That player may only be 18-19 years old. All in all, I think you handled this about the way that I would have.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Old School

Had it happen in a JV game. I wrote the coach up too! Definity did not want to see that coach progress any further in his career.

Wrote the coach up, you say? What exactly does that mean?


this is like quicksand.......

[Adam]

You have no idea what these kids are going through or how tough they are; their coach is far more qualified to make that judgment than an official who sees them for about an hour. I can tell you the easiest way to become a former official is to start telling a coach how to do his job. Then, suddenly, you're coaching a 5th grade AAU team yelling at the refs and telling them you should know because you used to ref varsity ball.

These coaches are responsible to enough people; we don't need to get involved. If for no other reason, it detracts from our appearance of objectivity. We can't afford that loss.

[mick]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

These coaches are responsible to enough people; we don't need to get involved. If for no other reason, it detracts from our appearance of objectivity. We can't afford that loss.

Snaqwells,
Somehow singling out and yelling at a kid in front of God and everyone else still doesn't feel like the reponsible direction of an alleged adult.
By ignoring that, are we not condoning the distraction?

[Old School]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Wrote the coach up, you say? What exactly does that mean? this is like quicksand.......

What do you think it means?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Old School

JRut, I understand your position here but it is the opposite extreme of what we are talking about. This tread is not about kids needing more discipline in there life or kids needing to toughen up.

The case I bought up with the child crying on the court. We’re talking kids still in grade school. The coach who was black wanted the white player who was taller than all the other kids in his age group to toughen up and play like a man. The kid was giving it his all, so much so, he was crying right there on the court. Damn near the whole game. My question to all of you is, when did you all lose site of kids just being kids? You have become the Roman society. When did bb become so damn important that kids now have to be adults before puberty sets in. Do you know that you will spend the majority of your life as an adult? How about we let kids be kids during those precious years where they don’t have a care in the world, instead of enforcing our selfish motives to win a bb game so they must grow up right now and get tough. I bet there was a lot of other places that kid would have rather been then running up and down that court crying. In fact, that type of abuse (and yes, I believe it is abusive to treat a kid this way) may turn this kid off to bb forever. That is the part that I speak about when I say it’s a sad state of affairs in this industry.

Crying does not mean anything. I have seen kids cry over committing a turnover. Also we give kids a trophy for just participating. When I was a kid you had to actually win something to get an award. I learned that you have to work hard and be exceptional. Sorry, I do not find it abusive for an adult to take them out of a game and when the kid pouts, and then the adult confronts them (as it appears it happen in your story). Also remember you asked for opinions and when we give it to you, you want to challenge it. Why did you come here in the first place if you did not want to accept opinions?

Originally Posted by Old School

Last, did you know that bully’s, kids that abuse other kids, are kids that are abused themselves. Did you know that? Where does this abuse start or come from? Could it be from being forced to do something they don’t want to do. I’m all for disciplining kids in a proper and respectful manner and there will be tough ramifications if you do something wrong, however....!

I had bullies too when I was a kid. I punched one in the mouth and they left me alone. I did not run to my parents or other adults to handle my business. Not to say that works today as well, but at some point kids have to learn to deal with adversity. I was the only Black kid in an entire school and I had some issues to deal with and I survived and became very strong for it. Kids today have someone call them a name the world is coming to an end.

Originally Posted by Old School

However valid your argument is JRut, it missed the boat here. You shot an airball, but it looked good.

First of all I did not come here asking for your opinion. You are the one having trouble figuring out what to do. I know what I would do and it would not be what you suggested. I feel adults have the right to displine kids and sometimes yell at them. Remember you said the kid had to be restrained. If the kid is reacting like that, then they do not need to play sports.

Peace

[Old School]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Crying does not mean anything. I have seen kids cry over committing a turnover. Also we give kids a trophy for just participating. When I was a kid you had to actually win something to get an award. I learned that you have to work hard and be exceptional. Sorry, I do not find it abusive for an adult to take them out of a game and when the kid pouts, and then the adult confronts them (as it appears it happen in your story). Also remember you asked for opinions and when we give it to you, you want to challenge it. Why did you come here in the first place if you did not want to accept opinions?

My apologies for sending the message I am challenging your opinion. I am trying to steer the discussion in another direction then you are heading, although I do value your opinion and position on this issue. Please don't be offended when I tell you, you are living out of the past. There are a lot of things that happen yesterday that are no longer valid today. For instance, gang violence is wosre today then it was when I was in school.

I had bullies too when I was a kid. I punched one in the mouth and they left me alone. I did not run to my parents or other adults to handle my business. Not to say that works today as well, but at some point kids have to learn to deal with adversity. I was the only Black kid in an entire school and I had some issues to deal with and I survived and became very strong for it. Kids today have someone call them a name the world is coming to an end.

Don't you think you are scretching it a little bit when you say the world is coming to an end if someone calls a kid a name. Can we at least keep the conversation to what's real and not what's hyperbole To your point about the bullies. What you did way back when, might get you killed today, if you think a fight is over after one successful punch. Again, I would like to keep the conversation to the 20th century if you don't mind.

First of all I did not come here asking for your opinion. You are the one having trouble figuring out what to do. I know what I would do and it would not be what you suggested. I feel adults have the right to displine kids and sometimes yell at them. Remember you said the kid had to be restrained. If the kid is reacting like that, then they do not need to play sports.

Once again, you are lost in space and appears to be the one with the problem here. You are having the hardest time discussing it. It's okay that you would handle it differently. I also agree with you that coaches should be able to disciplhine there players, to a certain extinct. The problem that I have with you is that you are living out of yesterday. In the here and now, coaches go to the extreme, and so do some parents, and it is that extreme that I am discussing, that you can't seem to get your arm's around. You keep wanting to talk about something else, when there is a very real, a very valid problem out there with adults (coaches) crossing the line too.

Continue on talking about your point of view and what you think this is all about. Even though it is a different discussion, there is much to learn there too.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Old School

My apologies for sending the message I am challenging your opinion. I am trying to steer the discussion in another direction then you are heading, although I do value your opinion and position on this issue. Please don't be offended when I tell you, you are living out of the past. There are a lot of things that happen yesterday that are no longer valid today. For instance, gang violence is wosre today then it was when I was in school.

Everyone is not exposed to Gang violence. It sounds like you buy into the hype the media is feeding you. BTW, kids still fight. I have seen some at some games and no one was shot. And a lot of what people consider a “gang” in some circles would be harmless in other circles. Let us use a little common sense. This discussion is not about gang violence. It is about a kid getting their poor little feelings hurt. What a tragedy.

Originally Posted by Old School

Don't you think you are scretching it a little bit when you say the world is coming to an end if someone calls a kid a name. Can we at least keep the conversation to what's real and not what's hyperbole To your point about the bullies. What you did way back when, might get you killed today, if you think a fight is over after one successful punch. Again, I would like to keep the conversation to the 20th century if you don't mind.

First of all I did not say the world was coming to an end. I simply said there is something wrong with a society that values the feelings of children over the responsibility of the adults that have to take care of them. Do not fool yourself into thinking that every confrontation involves gun play. The VT shooting was not the first shooting at a school and will not be the last. Remember the University of Texas? That did not even take place during my life time.

Originally Posted by Old School

Once again, you are lost in space and appears to be the one with the problem here. You are having the hardest time discussing it. It's okay that you would handle it differently. I also agree with you that coaches should be able to disciplhine there players, to a certain extinct. The problem that I have with you is that you are living out of yesterday. In the here and now, coaches go to the extreme, and so do some parents, and it is that extreme that I am discussing, that you can't seem to get your arm's around. You keep wanting to talk about something else, when there is a very real, a very valid problem out there with adults (coaches) crossing the line too.

It is so funny how you talk about of both sides of your azz. On one hand you try to apologize for disagreeing with me, the next minute you start name calling when the opinion is not what you share. Old School, do whatever the hell you want to. I personally do not care. It is very clear you cannot handle much criticism just by the way you handle things here. If you do not like what I have to say, stop reading my posts. I certainly have stop reading most of your posts.

Originally Posted by Old School

Continue on talking about your point of view and what you think this is all about. Even though it is a different discussion, there is much to learn there too.

This is your moral delemia, it is not mine. I know how I feel about this and know what I am going to do if it happens.

Peace

[Old School]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Everyone is not exposed to Gang violence. It sounds like you buy into the hype the media is feeding you.

So you think gang violence in America is a hype. That confirms it! You are completely disconnected from society and I got news for you. It is not a hype!

This discussion is not about gang violence. It is about a kid getting their poor little feelings hurt. What a tragedy.

Interesting, but a nice play on words. I like it and agree this discussion is not about gang violence.

First of all I did not say the world was coming to an end. I simply said there is something wrong with a society that values the feelings of children over the responsibility of the adults that have to take care of them.

Nobody is saying this but you. We are trying to address one problem, you know, one problem at a time. One fix at a time. Part of the problem I see with this country is the fact we can't get anything done because of trying to fix too many problems at once. Your attempt to ambush the conversation and make the water more murkly, happens over and over in our gov. and now you know why they can't get anything done.

Old School, do whatever the hell you want to. I personally do not care.

Then why do you keep posting and giving us your take on things. Your position is all players are brats and all coaches are saints. I think that sums up your position here.

It is very clear you cannot handle much criticism just by the way you handle things here.

What is clear is you cannot handle this discussion. You are the one that's complaining the most.

If you do not like what I have to say, stop reading my posts. I certainly have stop reading most of your posts.

Hey, in case you haven't read, this is my tread. Can I at least read the posts in the tread that I started. And quite lying to yourself. You are responding to everything I post now, which means you are reading everything I post. Perhaps you should take your own advise and let it go.