4 Guys on the floor....

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

That's what I was thinking too howie. If I'm not administering the throw-in following a time-out I generally flash the 10 to my partner to let him/her know we're good to go. Or I give the stop sign until we get it right, whether there is < than 10 or > than 10. Isn't this common practice?

I count to 5, both teams, easier and quicker to cout to 5 then 10.

The fact of the matter is it happens, and both the officials and the teams are to blame. I had it happen this weekend except we had 6 and niether my partner or myself noticed it and the player ran off the court before we did. Action, no action because we didn't see it, situation corrected itself which to me is better than enforcing a technical.

Had it happen in a bow out game and the team that was down by 30 or more, can't remember, after a timeout had 6 on the floor. I just stop the clocked and got the extra guy off the court and gave the ball back to the team. It went over so smooth, nobody said a word. I mean I gave the ball back to the team that was down that had 6 players on the floor. What I hate is when you run into coaches that wants you to enforce it in such a lopsided AAU type game.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

The fact of the matter is it happens, and both the officials and the teams are to blame.

No, the officials are not to blame.

[tjchamp]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

10.3.3 SITUATION B: After a lengthy substitution process involving multiple substitutions for both Team A and Team B, A5 goes to the bench and remains there, believing he/she has been replaced. The ball is put in play even though Team A has only four players on the court. Team A is bringing the ball into A's frontcourt when the coach of Team A realizes they have only four players. The coach yells for A5 to return and A5 sprints directly onto the court without reporting or without being beckoned. RULING: A technical foul is charged to A5 for returning during playing action even though A5 had not been replaced.

The ruling is to call the T when A5 returned to the court. It says nothing about calling it while they are playing with 4. If the intent of the rule was to T if they are playing with 4, wouldn't the case point out the T should be called immediately?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tjchamp

If the intent of the rule was to T if they are playing with 4, wouldn't the case point out the T should be called immediately?

Bingo!

Originally Posted by Old School

I count to 5, both teams, easier and quicker to cout to 5 then 10.

Not if you count by 2s

The fact of the matter is it happens, and both the officials and the teams are to blame.

I have been taught NOT to penalize a team for your mistakes. Basically, get it right the first time & there are no "correctable errors" to fix. IMO, to start action without 10 on the floor is a lack of communication between the enforcers.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

I have been taught NOT to penalize a team for your mistakes. Basically, get it right the first time & there are no "correctable errors" to fix. IMO, to start action without 10 on the floor is a lack of communication between the enforcers.

You have been taught wrong. It is always the coach's responsibility to have the proper number of players on the court, NOT the officials. It is NOT and never has been an official's mistake. If we can catch it and prevent it, that's fine. If we can't, we simply call it without worrying about being Mr. Nice Guy. Maybe it shouldn't happen, but if it does, it sureasheck isn't our fault.

You might be be able to get away with the Old School " ignore-it" method in rec leagues, kiddie-ball & AAU crap, but above that you just follow the rules.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

I have been taught NOT to penalize a team for your mistakes. Basically, get it right the first time & there are no "correctable errors" to fix. IMO, to start action without 10 on the floor is a lack of communication between the enforcers.

Sure, because everyone is taught to prevent this if possible. That said, if you miss it and play starts with 6; it's not the officials' fault. It's still the coach's responsibility, it's the coach's fault, and it's the coach who gets the penalty.
Don't accept blame for this, otherwise you'll never want to enforce it.

So I see thanks fellas, I stand corrected...

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Neither case play cited above is relevant or applicable to the situation being discussed. In the first case, the team simply has NO substitutes. In the second case, the player came on to the court during playing action, NOT at the next opportunity to substitute.

Apples and dinosaurs.

Did you even read what I wrote in my post?
I mentioned 3-1-1 because it is the general rule which states that a team plays with five players and MUST start with that number. We can't allow them to begin with four and we can only allow them to continue with four when they have no subs available. I point this out to counter the argument of those who say why can't we let a team play with four? Afterall, it is its own penalty. Well, because the RULES of NFHS basketball say otherwise.

Then before I quoted 10.3.3 SitB, I wrote this:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Hence we need and have a case play that tells us to call a T if the fifth player returns to the court during playing action, but we have no guidance whatsoever if the kid does not return. This is the case for which no penalty is prescribed in the NFHS rules.

So now we know what apples we're talking about and we also know who the dinosaur is.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by tjchamp

The ruling is to call the T when A5 returned to the court. It says nothing about calling it while they are playing with 4. If the intent of the rule was to T if they are playing with 4, wouldn't the case point out the T should be called immediately?

tj, see my previous post for my comment about 10.3.3 Sit B.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by howie719

My question to Nevada: If you or one of you partners notice just after a time-out a team only has four players, aren't you going to hold up play inform the coach he only has four so he can get his fifth out there?

Probably, but my point is that an official also has rules justification under 10-1-9 to go ahead and just charge a team technical foul without doing anything else. Afterall, it is the team's responsibility to follow the rules and get their five out there in the manner required.

[Adam]

I'm just following a thought here (not always a safe thing to do), but since the book tells us we can't let them play with four; should we stop play in the OP and bring the fifth back in? No penalty is prescribed, but we're told not to allow them to continue playing with four. Right?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'm just following a thought here (not always a safe thing to do), but since the book tells us we can't let them play with four; should we stop play in the OP and bring the fifth back in? No penalty is prescribed, but we're told not to allow them to continue playing with four. Right?

In the OP situation, which is following a time-out or intermission, I would stop play and issue a technical foul UNLESS the team with five players on the court is in the middle of a scoring play. In that case, I would wait until that finished and then assess the team T.