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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 06, 2007, 05:20am
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Arrow 4 Guys on the floor....

What's the rule for the following:

T1 comes out of the timeout with only 4 players. Play resumes. Can T1 bring in there 5th player (he was playing before the timeout), or does he have to wait for a dead ball? And if T1 brings in a 5th player, is the ball dead and a "T" given? I never thought this would happen, but it happened twice this past weekend.

Last edited by blindofficial; Sun May 06, 2007 at 11:36pm.
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 06, 2007, 05:45am
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Rule 10 Fouls and Penalties
SECTION 1 TEAM TECHNICAL
A team shall not:

...
ART. 9 . . . Fail to have all players return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission.

PENALTY: (Section 1) Two free throws plus ball for division-line throw-in.

DELAYING RETURN FOLLOWING TIME-OUT
10.1.9 SITUATION: Following a charged time-out Team B is still with their coach on the sideline when the official sounds the whistle to indicate play will resume. Four players of B return to the court just in time to play defense as A1 attempts an unsuccessful three-pointer. B1 rebounds and throws a long pass to B5 who enters the court just in time to catch the pass. RULING: A technical foul is immediately charged to Team B for failing to have all players return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission. While it is true the entire team may be off the court while the procedure is being used, once a team responds, all players must enter the court at approximately the same time. COMMENT: The resumption-of-play procedure is in effect to start the second half unless either team is not on the court. In that case regular delay provisions are in force.
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Old Sun May 06, 2007, 06:22am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Rule 10 Fouls and Penalties
SECTION 1 TEAM TECHNICAL
A team shall not:

...
ART. 9 . . . Fail to have all players return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission.

PENALTY: (Section 1) Two free throws plus ball for division-line throw-in.

DELAYING RETURN FOLLOWING TIME-OUT
10.1.9 SITUATION: Following a charged time-out Team B is still with their coach on the sideline when the official sounds the whistle to indicate play will resume. Four players of B return to the court just in time to play defense as A1 attempts an unsuccessful three-pointer. B1 rebounds and throws a long pass to B5 who enters the court just in time to catch the pass. RULING: A technical foul is immediately charged to Team B for failing to have all players return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission. While it is true the entire team may be off the court while the procedure is being used, once a team responds, all players must enter the court at approximately the same time. COMMENT: The resumption-of-play procedure is in effect to start the second half unless either team is not on the court. In that case regular delay provisions are in force.
This case play doesn't answer the question of what the call is if the fifth player doesn't come back on the court until the next legal substitution opportunity.
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Old Sun May 06, 2007, 10:35pm
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It sure does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
DELAYING RETURN FOLLOWING TIME-OUT
10.1.9 SITUATION: Following a charged time-out Team B is still with their coach on the sideline when the official sounds the whistle to indicate play will resume. Four players of B return to the court just in time to play defense as A1 attempts an unsuccessful three-pointer. B1 rebounds and throws a long pass to B5 who enters the court just in time to catch the pass. RULING: A technical foul is immediately charged to Team B for failing to have all players return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission. While it is true the entire team may be off the court while the procedure is being used, once a team responds, all players must enter the court at approximately the same time. COMMENT: The resumption-of-play procedure is in effect to start the second half unless either team is not on the court. In that case regular delay provisions are in force.
A fifth player waiting at the scorer's table until the next substitution opportunity clearly is not entering the court at approximately the same time as his teammates.
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Old Sun May 06, 2007, 10:52pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
It sure does.



A fifth player waiting at the scorer's table until the next substitution opportunity clearly is not entering the court at approximately the same time as his teammates.
But not mention in this case play that the officials should have called a T if they had noticed only four B players on the floor when play started. Why is that?
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Old Sun May 06, 2007, 11:05pm
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Perhaps the officials didn't notice, perhaps the rules committee believes there is no need for a case play stating to immediately call a T as it is obvious from the rule, or perhaps the rules committee felt that it was more important to use the case play to explain the reasoning behind why all of the players have to return at the same time -- it could be used deceptively to gain an advantage in the manner described in the case play.

Just some thoughts.
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Old Sun May 06, 2007, 11:15pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Perhaps the officials didn't notice, perhaps the rules committee believes there is no need for a case play stating to immediately call a T as it is obvious from the rule, or perhaps the rules committee felt that it was more important to use the case play to explain the reasoning behind why all of the players have to return at the same time -- it could be used deceptively to gain an advantage in the manner described in the case play.

Just some thoughts.
Possibly. Or perhaps because there is no advantage gained from unknowingly having only 4 players returned and no penalty is needed unless the 5th one joins in while the ball is live? I've often wondered why and would like a clarification from NFHS.
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Old Sun May 06, 2007, 11:40pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zebraman
Or perhaps because there is no advantage gained from unknowingly having only 4 players returned and no penalty is needed unless the 5th one joins in while the ball is live? I've often wondered why and would like a clarification from NFHS.
Yup, it's not definitively covered, as we've already gone over already several times in different threads. I agree with the logic above that no penalty is listed and there's no need to call a "T" if the fifth player doesn't come on. Playing with 4 players by itself is penalty enough.
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Old Mon May 07, 2007, 02:31am
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I have a similar thought to you and JR about the inherent disadvantage of playing with four, but the NFHS does have a requirement that a team has to play the game with five players if it has five team members available.

3-1-1 . . . Each team consists of five players, one of whom is the captain.
NOTE: A team must begin the game with five players, but if it has no substitutes to replace disqualified or injured players, it must continue with fewer than five. When there is only one player participating for a team, the team shall forfeit the game, unless the referee believes that team has an opportunity to win the game.


NUMBER OF PLAYERS REQUIRED
3.1.1 SITUATION: After six players have been disqualified, Team A has only four who are eligible to continue in the game as players. In a gesture of fair play, the coach of Team B indicates a desire to withdraw a player so that each team will have four players on the court. RULING: This is not permissible. Team B must have five players participating as long as it has that number available. If no substitute is available, a team must continue with fewer than five players. When only one player remains to participate, that team shall forfeit the game unless the referee believes this team still has an opportunity to win the game.


Where JR and I disagree is that my position is that there most definitely is a rule which covers a team failing to send five back out following a time-out or intermission. It is 10-1-9, and the penalty is also right there in black-and-white. The book clearly states that this is a technical foul.

What is not currently covered, due to the rule change back in 2005-06 which altered the penalty for leaving the court, is the case in which a team does this after a normal substitution process due to confusion. 10-1-9 wouldn't apply under those circumstances and 9-3-3 is intended to only govern action during a live ball.

Hence we need and have a case play that tells us to call a T if the fifth player returns to the court during playing action, but we have no guidance whatsoever if the kid does not return. This is the case for which no penalty is prescribed in the NFHS rules.

10.3.3 SITUATION B: After a lengthy substitution process involving multiple substitutions for both Team A and Team B, A5 goes to the bench and remains there, believing he/she has been replaced. The ball is put in play even though Team A has only four players on the court. Team A is bringing the ball into A's frontcourt when the coach of Team A realizes they have only four players. The coach yells for A5 to return and A5 sprints directly onto the court without reporting or without being beckoned. RULING: A technical foul is charged to A5 for returning during playing action even though A5 had not been replaced.
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Old Mon May 07, 2007, 02:32am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zebraman
Possibly. Or perhaps because there is no advantage gained from unknowingly having only 4 players returned and no penalty is needed unless the 5th one joins in while the ball is live? I've often wondered why and would like a clarification from NFHS.
Since there is no advantage to a team playing with only four, why don't we let teams do it whenever they wish, including at the beginning of a game?
Simply because of rules which state that they can't. That's why.
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Old Mon May 07, 2007, 04:39am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
3-1-1 . . . Each team consists of five players, one of whom is the captain.
NOTE: A team must begin the game with five players, but if it has no substitutes to replace disqualified or injured players, it must continue with fewer than five. When there is only one player participating for a team, the team shall forfeit the game, unless the referee believes that team has an opportunity to win the game.


NUMBER OF PLAYERS REQUIRED
3.1.1 SITUATION: After six players have been disqualified, Team A has only four who are eligible to continue in the game as players. In a gesture of fair play, the coach of Team B indicates a desire to withdraw a player so that each team will have four players on the court. RULING: This is not permissible. Team B must have five players participating as long as it has that number available. If no substitute is available, a team must continue with fewer than five players. When only one player remains to participate, that team shall forfeit the game unless the referee believes this team still has an opportunity to win the game.


10.3.3 SITUATION B: After a lengthy substitution process involving multiple substitutions for both Team A and Team B, A5 goes to the bench and remains there, believing he/she has been replaced. The ball is put in play even though Team A has only four players on the court. Team A is bringing the ball into A's frontcourt when the coach of Team A realizes they have only four players. The coach yells for A5 to return and A5 sprints directly onto the court without reporting or without being beckoned. RULING: A technical foul is charged to A5 for returning during playing action even though A5 had not been replaced.
Neither case play cited above is relevant or applicable to the situation being discussed. In the first case, the team simply has NO substitutes. In the second case, the player came on to the court during playing action, NOT at the next opportunity to substitute.

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Old Mon May 07, 2007, 06:36am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Since there is no advantage to a team playing with only four, why don't we let teams do it whenever they wish, including at the beginning of a game?
Simply because of rules which state that they can't. That's why.
But the rules don't say we give a T then let them play with 4. The rule just states that you have to have 5. If we don't we wait, then you could have a delay of game T or a forfeit.
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Old Mon May 07, 2007, 07:12am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Since there is no advantage to a team playing with only four, why don't we let teams do it whenever they wish, including at the beginning of a game?
Simply because of rules which state that they can't. That's why.
There's a difference, imo, between a team knowingly playing (or trying to play) with 4 (not allowed) and mistakenly playing with 4 (allowed, and a T if the 5th player just runs on the court).
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Old Mon May 07, 2007, 09:01am
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My question to Nevada: If you or one of you partners notice just after a time-out a team only has four players, aren't you going to hold up play inform the coach he only has four so he can get his fifth out there?
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Old Mon May 07, 2007, 09:57am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by howie719
My question to Nevada: If you or one of you partners notice just after a time-out a team only has four players, aren't you going to hold up play inform the coach he only has four so he can get his fifth out there?

That's what I was thinking too howie. If I'm not administering the throw-in following a time-out I generally flash the 10 to my partner to let him/her know we're good to go. Or I give the stop sign until we get it right, whether there is < than 10 or > than 10. Isn't this common practice?
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