Self bat

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

1) Okay guys, you got to stop.

2) Somebody needs to define the word bat in the Federation code? To me, BAT does not mean PASS!

1) Why? Because you don't understand what we're talking about? That's never stopped you from posting before.

2) Um, I hate to break this to, but the term "bat" sureashell IS defined in the NFHS rule book. Very explicitly too. Not only that, if you look up the definition of a "pass" in the NFHS rulebook, you will also find that a "bat" sureashell can also be a "pass" too. Why don't you go look up those terms in the FED rule book and get back to us when you understand them?

If you don't have a clue what we're talking about or what actually is contained in the rules, why post?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Old School

The player did not bat the ball, okay.

Yes he did. Re-read the OP.

Originally Posted by Old School

That is not what the OP stated happen which means you are in the wrong section of the code for this play.

Actually, 4-15-2 describes the play exactly.

Originally Posted by Old School

Arguing semantics is driving me crazy.

But knowing the semantics helps you understand the game, and how it is to be called. Otherwise, you are just making things up.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yup. Look at 4-15-4(b)--palming. Is palming a violation? No! It's what you do after you palm the ball that determines whether or not the dribbler violates. The "palm" only ends the dribble. If you dribble again after palming the ball, you have an illegal second dribble. If you move your pivot foot illegally while palming the ball, you're traveling. If you "palm" and then immediately pass or shoot, it's a legal play.

The play being discussed is really no different than ending a dribble by palming the ball. What the player does after ending their dribble determines the call or no-call.

So, just so we're clear, are you saying the touch after the bat simply ends the dribble?

[Camron Rust]

"4-15-ART. 2 . . . During a dribble the ball may be batted into the air provided it is
permitted to strike the floor before the ball is touched again with the hand(s)."

This rule is definining what a player may and may not do. While it is not explicitly listed in rule 9 under illegal dribble, its mere presence in the definition of dribbling relates it to an illegal dribble.


This rule clearly says that when a ball, during a dribble, is batted into the air, the dribbler can only touch the ball again (with the hands) if it is first allowed to hit the floor. It doesn't distinguish between that subsequent touch being another dribble or a catch to end the dribble. The "during a dribble" part of the rule is only refering to the time the ball is batted, not the subsequent touch.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) Why? Because you don't understand what we're talking about? That's never stopped you from posting before.

2) Um, I hate to break this to, but the term "bat" sureashell IS defined in the NFHS rule book. Very explicitly too. Not only that, if you look up the definition of a "pass" in the NFHS rulebook, you will also find that a "bat" sureashell can also be a "pass" too. Why don't you go look up those terms in the FED rule book and get back to us when you understand them?

If you don't have a clue what we're talking about or what actually is contained in the rules, why post?

The OP stated he lobbed (batted) the ball to himself. How can you lob and bat the ball at the same time? Either you batted the ball to yourself or you lobbed the ball to yourself, but you can't do both, and both are illegal by rule. I envision this as a pass (lob) and not a batted ball. Since the OP specifically included batted, I see why that took you down this path. Perhaps the OP intentionally wanted to twist you guys up.

The rules regarding illegal dribble are quite complex and borders on traveling. If we had an interrupted dribble or lost of the dribble, then you can argue that the player is allowed to recover the ball. However, with the absence of this, just a clear bungle of the play, we got a violation. But let's not diminish the judgment of the play by the official. If in the officials judgment the player tried to shoot the ball from the lob attempt, batted it afterwards in an attempt to score, then recovers it and shoots again. I would say legal. If the player got cute and decided to pass to himself (which is what I envision) I would call a violation without hesitation. Don't forget the suitcase the next time.

Good discussion....nicely laced questioned by the OP.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Old School

The OP stated he lobbed (batted) the ball to himself. How can you lob and bat the ball at the same time? Either you batted the ball to yourself or you lobbed the ball to yourself, but you can't do both, and both are illegal by rule.

Which rule makes both illegal?

[Old School]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Which rule makes both illegal?

4-15-2, I stand corrected.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Old School

4-15-2, I stand corrected.

Ok, I appriciate that.

Just so you understand, the reason for this long thread is to differentiate the wording in that rule as to whether the touch after the bat over the defender's head is a violation, or simply a way to end the dribble.

Take the OP, but change the ending slightly: A1 dribbles up to B1, bats the ball up over B1, runs around B1, taking 4 or 5 steps to do so, and continues the dribble after the ball bounces once behind B1. I've gathered from your previous posts that you would call this a travel, because there is no such thing as batting the ball to yourself, and taking several steps to do so. However, you would be entirely wrong because of the wording of 4-15-2. You would've screwed A1 out of a possession because you did not fully understand the rules and their intent.

Also, as far as not being able to bat the ball to yourself, think of it this way: isn't a dribble nothing more than batting the ball to yourself off the ground? Knowing specific terms and definitions is important in understanding how the game should be officiated.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Ok, I appriciate that.

Just so you understand, the reason for this long thread is to differentiate the wording in that rule as to whether the touch after the bat over the defender's head is a violation, or simply a way to end the dribble.

Take the OP, but change the ending slightly: A1 dribbles up to B1, bats the ball up over B1, runs around B1, taking 4 or 5 steps to do so, and continues the dribble after the ball bounces once behind B1. I've gathered from your previous posts that you would call this a travel, because there is no such thing as batting the ball to yourself, and taking several steps to do so. However, you would be entirely wrong because of the wording of 4-15-2. You would've screwed A1 out of a possession because you did not fully understand the rules and their intent.

Also, as far as not being able to bat the ball to yourself, think of it this way: isn't a dribble nothing more than batting the ball to yourself off the ground? Knowing specific terms and definitions is important in understanding how the game should be officiated.

Shutup...dexter-head.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Old School

The rules regarding illegal dribble are quite complex and borders on traveling.

No, they do not border on traveling.

Traveling occurs while HOLDING the ball.

You cannot travel while dribbling, either legally or illegally.

It's amazing that you can't get that through your head.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

I envision this as a pass (lob) and not a batted ball.

I envision a rule that says a bat can be pass, and vice-versa.

If you don't understand simple rules definitions, as well as the rules,you obviously cannot call a play correctly.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

It's amazing that you can't get that through your head.

Not really....

[Old School]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Ok, I appriciate that.

Just so you understand, the reason for this long thread is to differentiate the wording in that rule as to whether the touch after the bat over the defender's head is a violation, or simply a way to end the dribble.

Actually, I got this part but I'm not so sure we are all in agreement on the answer.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Take the OP, but change the ending slightly: A1 dribbles up to B1, bats the ball up over B1, runs around B1, taking 4 or 5 steps to do so, and continues the dribble after the ball bounces once behind B1. I've gathered from your previous posts that you would call this a travel, because there is no such thing as batting the ball to yourself, and taking several steps to do so. However, you would be entirely wrong because of the wording of 4-15-2. You would've screwed A1 out of a possession because you did not fully understand the rules and their intent.

No, I understand the intent just fine, it's all the discussion on batting the ball that was troublesome. To me, once we enter into batting the ball, we are entering into an interrupted dribble. My position hasn't changed though, you can not pass (not bounce-pass) the ball to yourself. I call that bball 101.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Also, as far as not being able to bat the ball to yourself, think of it this way: isn't a dribble nothing more than batting the ball to yourself off the ground?

I agree and I'm not arguing that at all, but remember, I think it was Wilt Chamberlain that batted the ball off the rebound all the way down the court without dribbling and scored. Since no one could jump as high as him, the defense had no way of stopping the play accept to foul him. Not what we want.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Knowing specific terms and definitions is important in understanding how the game should be officiated.

Knowing the intent and purpose of the rule is paramount. Sometimes the details behind the rules gets in the way of just managing the game and getting the right call. What I'm talking about here is overthinking the play.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

No, they do not border on traveling.

Traveling occurs while HOLDING the ball.

You cannot travel while dribbling, either legally or illegally.

It's amazing that you can't get that through your head.

I get it but my point is you can't go from point A to point B without dribbling the ball. If you want to call it illegal dribble, fine, if I want to call it traveling, fine, we both got violations, we're both right as far as the game is concerned. Some of us might be more right than others but then the issue becomes more esoteric and I think the bigger picture here is to just recognize the violation.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yup. Look at 4-15-4(b)--palming. Is palming a violation? No! It's what you do after you palm the ball that determines whether or not the dribbler violates. The "palm" only ends the dribble. If you dribble again after palming the ball, you have an illegal second dribble. If you move your pivot foot illegally while palming the ball, you're traveling. If you "palm" and then immediately pass or shoot, it's a legal play.

The play being discussed is really no different than ending a dribble by palming the ball. What the player does after ending their dribble determines the call or no-call.

The huge difference is that palming the ball is specified as a way that ends a dribble. (4-15-4-b) Touching the ball a second time before it touches the floor does not, by definition, end the dribble, but we know that it is a violation. (4.15.4 sit. D) So now we know that we can have an illegal dribble violation without ending the dribble, but where is this explained in the Rules Book?