Self bat

KCRef · #1 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 25, 2007, 12:37pm

Had a player last night dribbling up the court for a 1 on 1 break. Right before he got to the defender, he lobbed (batted) the ball up to himself around the defender (not a shot), took a few steps then jumped and caught the ball in the air, and shot it before returning to the ground. The ball did not hit the floor before he caught his own pass either. Is this legal? What if it had bounced before he got to it? He thought that since he caught and released the ball in midair, there would be no violation. I disagreed.

Jurassic Referee · #2 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 25, 2007, 12:52pm

Legal play.The player ended his dribble. The call now depends on what the player does with his pivot foot after he ended the dribble. There was nothing violated under NFHS rule 4-42-2(a) because the player never landed.

Old School · #3 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 25, 2007, 01:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Legal play.The player ended his dribble. The call now depends on what the player does with his pivot foot after he ended the dribble. There was nothing violated under NFHS rule 4-42-2(a) because the player never landed.

You can't pass the ball to yourself . If he throws it off the backboard, legal, but if it doesn't hit anything or it's not a shot attempt or an interrupted dribble, it is a classic traveling with the ball.

Was was your call OP?

Scrapper1 · #4 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 25, 2007, 01:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Legal play.The player ended his dribble. The call now depends on what the player does with his pivot foot after he ended the dribble. There was nothing violated under NFHS rule 4-42-2(a) because the player never landed.

Quote:

he lobbed (batted) the ball up to himself around the defender (not a shot), took a few steps then jumped and caught the ball in the air

Maybe nothing violated under 4-42-2(a), but what about 4.15.4 Situation E?

Scrapper1 · #5 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 25, 2007, 01:18pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ch1town

KCRef: What if it had bounced before he got to it?

Legal. Just another dribble.

Quote:

How about if a player threw the ball against the backboard off the dribble then went to finish a la T Mac, would that be a double dribble?

As long as it's off his own backboard, legal as well.

Jurassic Referee · #6 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 25, 2007, 01:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ch1town

1) JR, so it's legal to pass to yourself?

2) KCRef: What if it had bounced before he got to it?

3) How about if a player threw the ball against the backboard off the dribble then went to finish a la T Mac, would that be a double dribble?

1) Where do you get a "pass" from? The bat was part of the dribble. See casebook play 4.15.4SitD(a).

2) Casebook play 4-15.4SitD(b) answers that one. It's a "interrupted dribble". It's legal to either continue dribbling or end the dribble. If you end the dribble, rule 4-44 will determine whether the player subsequently travels or not.

3) Legal play. Judgment call as to whether the ball thrown against the backboard was a shot or a pass. Unless you're a mindreader (and I'm certainly not), the common practice is to judge it as a "try".

Dan_ref · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 25, 2007, 01:22pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Maybe nothing violated under 4-42-2(a), but what about 4.15.4 Situation E?

That's the one I was thinking of, some others might have thought of it too.

JRutledge · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 25, 2007, 01:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old School

You can't pass the ball to yourself you moron. Keep reading, you will eventually find it. If he throws it off the backboard, legal, but if it doesn't hit anything or it's not a shot attempt or an interrupted dribble, it is a classic traveling with the ball.

Was was your call OP?

Where is your rules reference? (Or is this too hard to reference?)

Peace

Texas Aggie · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 25, 2007, 01:31pm

Dude, don't take the bait. You're smarter than he is, so show it. I'm sure you've been called a lot worse and ignored it and no one on here would so anything but laugh at the reference.

Jurassic Referee · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 25, 2007, 01:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Maybe nothing violated under 4-42-2(a), but what about 4.15.4 Situation E?

Not relevant. The ball was batted over the defender's head. That's part of the dribble. Grabbing the ball in mid-air after going around the defender legally ended the dribble. If he had batted the ball to the floor again instead--a la 4.15.4SitD(a), it would have been a violation for touching the ball twice during a single dribble. If he catches the ball, it is ruled as a traveling violation because it never met the requirements of being a dribble as outlined in 4-15-1.

Apples and sushi.

Dan_ref · #11 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 25, 2007, 01:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Not relevant. The ball was batted over the defender's head. That's part of the dribble. Grabbing the ball in mid-air after going around the defender legally ended the dribble. If he had batted the ball to the floor again instead--a la 4.15.4SitD(a), it would have been a violation for touching the ball twice during a single dribble.

Apples and sushi.

Yeahbut he took a couple of steps in both the case play and the OP's sitch.

I don't think being in the air when he catches the ball makes a difference.

BktBallRef · #12 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 25, 2007, 01:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old School

You can't pass the ball to yourself.

That is correct. You can't pass the ball to yourself because a pass is defined as throwing the ball to a terammate. Therefore, there's no such thing as a self pass, legal or illegal. It doesn't exist.

If he throws it off the backboard, legal, but if it doesn't hit anything or it's not a shot attempt or an interrupted dribble, it is a classic traveling with the ball. [/quote]

You are so damn WRONG. Read the rule book!

With one exception, you must be HOLDING the ball in order to travel!

As long as the player above did not end his dribble, his play is perfectly legal. If he ended the dribble, released the ball and then touched it again, it's an illegal dribble. But under NO circumstances is this ever traveling!!!

JoeTheRef · #13 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 25, 2007, 01:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Not relevant. The ball was batted over the defender's head. That's part of the dribble. Grabbing the ball in mid-air after going around the defender legally ended the dribble. If he had batted the ball to the floor again instead--a la 4.15.4SitD(a), it would have been a violation for touching the ball twice during a single dribble. If he catches the ball, it is ruled as a traveling violation because it never met the requirements of being a dribble as outlined in 4-15-1.

Apples and sushi.

JR that same case play 4.15.4SitE(b). The ruling specifically says since the ball did not touch the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is an illegal dribble.

Jurassic Referee · #14 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 25, 2007, 01:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

JR that same case play 4.15.4SitE(b). The ruling specifically says since the ball did not touch the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is an illegal dribble.

Joe, that case play is referencing rule 4-15-1. The player is starting a dribble. If he grabs the ball before it hits the floor once, he has never legally dribbled. Iow, there never was a legal dribble involved. In the play being discussed, the player is in the middle of a legal dribble. All he is doing is ending that legal dribble.

Scrapper1 · #15 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 25, 2007, 02:06pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The player is starting a dribble.

Interesting. I hadn't noticed that the case play is about starting the dribble. But I don't see how it can be legal to bat the ball in the air during a dribble, take several steps, and then catch the ball. I think the case play has to cover the play under discussion. The bat and subsequent catch would have to be an illegal dribble, no?