Self bat

KCRef · #1 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 25, 2007, 12:37pm

Had a player last night dribbling up the court for a 1 on 1 break. Right before he got to the defender, he lobbed (batted) the ball up to himself around the defender (not a shot), took a few steps then jumped and caught the ball in the air, and shot it before returning to the ground. The ball did not hit the floor before he caught his own pass either. Is this legal? What if it had bounced before he got to it? He thought that since he caught and released the ball in midair, there would be no violation. I disagreed.

Jurassic Referee · #2 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 25, 2007, 12:52pm

Legal play.The player ended his dribble. The call now depends on what the player does with his pivot foot after he ended the dribble. There was nothing violated under NFHS rule 4-42-2(a) because the player never landed.

Old School · #3 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 25, 2007, 01:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Legal play.The player ended his dribble. The call now depends on what the player does with his pivot foot after he ended the dribble. There was nothing violated under NFHS rule 4-42-2(a) because the player never landed.

You can't pass the ball to yourself . If he throws it off the backboard, legal, but if it doesn't hit anything or it's not a shot attempt or an interrupted dribble, it is a classic traveling with the ball.

Was was your call OP?

JRutledge · #4 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 25, 2007, 01:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old School

You can't pass the ball to yourself you moron. Keep reading, you will eventually find it. If he throws it off the backboard, legal, but if it doesn't hit anything or it's not a shot attempt or an interrupted dribble, it is a classic traveling with the ball.

Was was your call OP?

Where is your rules reference? (Or is this too hard to reference?)

Peace

BktBallRef · #5 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 25, 2007, 01:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old School

You can't pass the ball to yourself.

That is correct. You can't pass the ball to yourself because a pass is defined as throwing the ball to a terammate. Therefore, there's no such thing as a self pass, legal or illegal. It doesn't exist.

If he throws it off the backboard, legal, but if it doesn't hit anything or it's not a shot attempt or an interrupted dribble, it is a classic traveling with the ball. [/quote]

You are so damn WRONG. Read the rule book!

With one exception, you must be HOLDING the ball in order to travel!

As long as the player above did not end his dribble, his play is perfectly legal. If he ended the dribble, released the ball and then touched it again, it's an illegal dribble. But under NO circumstances is this ever traveling!!!

KCRef · #6 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 25, 2007, 02:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old School

That is correct. You can't pass the ball to yourself because a pass is defined as throwing the ball to a terammate. Therefore, there's no such thing as a self pass, legal or illegal. It doesn't exist.

If he throws it off the backboard, legal, but if it doesn't hit anything or it's not a shot attempt or an interrupted dribble, it is a classic traveling with the ball.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

You are so damn WRONG. Read the rule book!

With one exception, you must be HOLDING the ball in order to travel!

As long as the player above did not end his dribble, his play is perfectly legal. If he ended the dribble, released the ball and then touched it again, it's an illegal dribble. But under NO circumstances is this ever traveling!!!

I don't know why, but I feel embarassed to say this, but this was in a pick-up game in which I was playing. OK, there I said it. I told my team-mate I thought it was a travel, but it was a game-ender at 11:00 at night, and we were all ready to go home anyway, so not too much complaining.

So, BBR, it sounds like it depends on whether or not the dribble ended. If it was just a bat, then the dribble did not end, thus legal. However, if he picked it up with both hands and lobbed it forward to himself and did as described, it would be double dribble as soon as he caught it. Is this correct?

JoeTheRef · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 25, 2007, 02:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by KCRef

You are so damn WRONG. Read the rule book!

With one exception, you must be HOLDING the ball in order to travel!

As long as the player above did not end his dribble, his play is perfectly legal. If he ended the dribble, released the ball and then touched it again, it's an illegal dribble. But under NO circumstances is this ever traveling!!!

I don't know why, but I feel embarassed to say this, but this was in a pick-up game in which I was playing. OK, there I said it. I told my team-mate I thought it was a travel, but it was a game-ender at 11:00 at night, and we were all ready to go home anyway, so not too much complaining.

So, BBR, it sounds like it depends on whether or not the dribble ended. If it was just a bat, then the dribble did not end, thus legal. However, if he picked it up with both hands and lobbed it forward to himself and did as described, it would be double dribble as soon as he caught it. Is this correct?[/QUOTE]

Since you clarified on the level or type of game... IT WAS A FRICKIN NO CALL!!!!!!

BktBallRef · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 25, 2007, 09:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by KCRef

I don't know why, but I feel embarassed to say this, but this was in a pick-up game in which I was playing. OK, there I said it. I told my team-mate I thought it was a travel, but it was a game-ender at 11:00 at night, and we were all ready to go home anyway, so not too much complaining.

So, BBR, it sounds like it depends on whether or not the dribble ended. If it was just a bat, then the dribble did not end, thus legal. However, if he picked it up with both hands and lobbed it forward to himself and did as described, it would be double dribble as soon as he caught it. Is this correct?

If he ended the dribble and then batted the ball into the air, it's an illegal dribble.

It is not illegal if he is dribbling, bats the ball, goes around the opponent and catches the ball before it hits the floor.

It would never be traveling.

M&M Guy · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 25, 2007, 03:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old School

My call is when he touches the ball again after passing it to himself, he traveled with the ball. He went from here to here without dribbling it. Damn I'm good.

Um, no you're not, just lucky in this case.

Yep, I believe the OP was a violation, but not for the reason you state. In fact, if the ball had hit the ground before he picked it up and shot, you would be wrong, because, by rule, it would be a legal dribble. So, since it's a dribble, a basketball rule fundamental (not one of them pesky little technical thingies, but an actual fundamental) states you cannot travel during a dribble.

Texas Aggie · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 25, 2007, 01:31pm

Dude, don't take the bait. You're smarter than he is, so show it. I'm sure you've been called a lot worse and ignored it and no one on here would so anything but laugh at the reference.

Scrapper1 · #11 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 25, 2007, 01:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Legal play.The player ended his dribble. The call now depends on what the player does with his pivot foot after he ended the dribble. There was nothing violated under NFHS rule 4-42-2(a) because the player never landed.

Quote:

he lobbed (batted) the ball up to himself around the defender (not a shot), took a few steps then jumped and caught the ball in the air

Maybe nothing violated under 4-42-2(a), but what about 4.15.4 Situation E?

Dan_ref · #12 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 25, 2007, 01:22pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Maybe nothing violated under 4-42-2(a), but what about 4.15.4 Situation E?

That's the one I was thinking of, some others might have thought of it too.

Jurassic Referee · #13 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 25, 2007, 01:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Maybe nothing violated under 4-42-2(a), but what about 4.15.4 Situation E?

Not relevant. The ball was batted over the defender's head. That's part of the dribble. Grabbing the ball in mid-air after going around the defender legally ended the dribble. If he had batted the ball to the floor again instead--a la 4.15.4SitD(a), it would have been a violation for touching the ball twice during a single dribble. If he catches the ball, it is ruled as a traveling violation because it never met the requirements of being a dribble as outlined in 4-15-1.

Apples and sushi.

Dan_ref · #14 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 25, 2007, 01:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Not relevant. The ball was batted over the defender's head. That's part of the dribble. Grabbing the ball in mid-air after going around the defender legally ended the dribble. If he had batted the ball to the floor again instead--a la 4.15.4SitD(a), it would have been a violation for touching the ball twice during a single dribble.

Apples and sushi.

Yeahbut he took a couple of steps in both the case play and the OP's sitch.

I don't think being in the air when he catches the ball makes a difference.

JoeTheRef · #15 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 25, 2007, 01:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Not relevant. The ball was batted over the defender's head. That's part of the dribble. Grabbing the ball in mid-air after going around the defender legally ended the dribble. If he had batted the ball to the floor again instead--a la 4.15.4SitD(a), it would have been a violation for touching the ball twice during a single dribble. If he catches the ball, it is ruled as a traveling violation because it never met the requirements of being a dribble as outlined in 4-15-1.

Apples and sushi.

JR that same case play 4.15.4SitE(b). The ruling specifically says since the ball did not touch the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is an illegal dribble.